Childhood indoctrination

[Forbinator]

We often think of childhood indoctrination as applying to religion; we notice that most people seem to take on the religious beliefs of their parents (probably even if we include atheism as a religion), and these beliefs can be difficult to undo if they are all a person has ever known. I think this phenomenon can apply to other areas, even if there is no logical reason for sticking with the belief.

One "conversion" (not religious in nature) that I've gone through is becoming vegan. The way I see it, I was brought up with the idea that animals are ours to use and exist for the purpose of serving us, and that non-humans are somehow "lower" than us and are not worthy of their interests being considered. Much like religion, this was pushed upon me before I was old enough to consider such hypotheses, or even understand what was actually on my plate, let alone the production process involved in getting it there. It was so normalised in my family and wider community, and it tasted good, so I had no reason to question it. It took several different experiences to unprogram my mind so I would be motivated to think for myself in an unbiased way about this issue. I learned about the animal exploitation industries during my veterinary science degree, attended a talk by the founder of Edgar's Mission animal sanctuary, and watched the movie Earthlings (which can be watched for free at http://www.earthlings.com).

I could probably write a book on the various levels of cruelty in the animal exploitation industries, but to sum things up succinctly: we would all agree that murdering a human for personal enjoyment is not morally justifiable, so to justify killing non-humans for our personal enjoyment, we must specifically identify species differences that confer less of a will to live, less of a survival instinct, or a reduced capacity for suffering. For the animals we exploit the most (mammals, fish, birds and crustaceans) such differences are not apparent. We can't use reduced intelligence as a reason, since this would allow us to justify murdering mentally retarded people, and besides, how do we make the logical leap from someone being less intelligent, to deserving to be exploited and killed? Even if they don't know they will be killed, it is not an adequate justification for human murder to say "but I did it humanely, and he/she didn't even know it was coming!" If I had continued to exploit animals despite the logic presented to me, it would have made no more sense than someone who continues to believe in a religion despite no scientific or logical justification.

Does anyone here think that there are logical justifications for exploiting animals for food, clothing and entertainment? And more to the point, does anyone else have examples of childhood indoctrination (of a non-religious type) which they have managed to overcome?

[Aractus]

, Vegan nutcase!

[festive1]

An example of non-religious childhood indoctrination? Dysfunctional family dynamics. For instance the way my family worked, the kids were supposed to not do things that would set off my unstable father. His behavior wasn't seen as being under his control, rather as a byproduct of "bad behavior" on our (and my mother's) part (ranging from having the TV too loud to being a smart ass or talking back, aka typical kid behavior). This of course is untrue, no one is responsible for dad's behavior other than the man himself.

[Aractus]

Good example. I know of several cases.

[Something completely different]

I was a vegan, I got some serious health issues.

I suggest you stop, or just become a veggie before you get the same trouble.

This is just a friendly suggestion.

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Does anyone here think that there are logical justifications for exploiting animals for food, clothing and entertainment?

I can eat it, I can wear it, it entertains me.

And more to the point, does anyone else have examples of childhood indoctrination (of a non-religious type) which they have managed to overcome?

Schoolsystem in the communist block (and even today in NK and China)

Youth organisations of the communist block, such as the FDJ.

But what festive1 mentioned is probably the best example, parents can indoctrinate their kids to believe all kinds of shit. When I was bullied I was told by my parents that it was my fault, and believed it for a long time of my life.

[littleendian]

Does anyone here think that there are logical justifications for exploiting animals for food, clothing and entertainment? And more to the point, does anyone else have examples of childhood indoctrination (of a non-religious type) which they have managed to overcome?

Welcome! Vegans are of course used to the usual roll-eye responses, but it took some getting used to the stiff opposition to this idea even from people who supposedly are fans of reason. It's one thing to reason about theoretical constructs like "God" and it's a very different thing to actually apply ones thinking to ones own actions and ones very own dinner plate. Where it would actually matter for a change. Instead, people go on and on about whether God exists or not, which absolutely doesn't fucking matter nearly as much as our own actions here and now.

Never underestimate the power of herd thinking.

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I was a vegan, I got some serious health issues.

I'm sad to hear! Did you lose too much weight or what was the issue?

[Something completely different]

Welcome! Vegans are of course used to the usual roll-eye responses, but it took some getting used to the stiff opposition to this idea even from people who supposedly are fans of reason. It's one thing to reason about theoretical constructs like "God" and it's a very different thing to actually apply ones thinking to ones own actions and ones very own dinner plate. Where it would actually matter for a change. Instead, people go on and on about whether God exists or not, which absolutely doesn't fucking matter nearly as much as our own actions here and now.

Never underestimate the power of herd thinking.

Only because this is an atheist forum, this does not mean that we only ask ourselves if god exists or not.
Your oversimplicistic description let`s it apear like if it were the only thing we debated.
In case you didnt notice last week when a british soldier was murdered by muslim thugs - religion has an impact on our life.

Certaintly it is interesting to debate the impact cattle farming may have on global warming - which may motivate to change eating habbits.

But debating over giving a chicken equal rights?!?!

[littleendian]

, Vegan nutcase!

As a self-identified Anglican calling someone else a nutcase really is something...

[Something completely different]

I'm sad to hear! Did you lose too much weight or what was the issue?

Gewichtsverlust war Faktor. Jedoch zwang mich auftretender Knochenschwund und Zahnprobleme zum Aufhören.

[littleendian]

But debating over giving a chicken equal rights?!?!

No, not equal rights, that's a usual response and a sin against the second commandment of rational arguments:

2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person's argument In order to make it easier to attack.

Basically just leaving them alone would be sufficient.

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Your oversimplicistic description let`s it apear like if it were the only thing we debated.
In case you didnt notice last week when a british soldier was murdered by muslim thugs - religion has an impact on our life.

You're right, but our own actions have consequences as well, and it's irrational to consider only those interests of one species if the members of many other species have exactly the same interests and exactly as much or as little right to ask for their fulfilment as us.