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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 12:43 am
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2013 at 12:46 am by MindForgedManacle.)
While I think it's to some extent silly to think that determinism is the default position, it is the position that has the lion's share of support in - and evidence from - the sciences and philosophy. That of course doesn't make it true, but it does give you an indication on where the evidence seems to point, by those academically involved with the concept.
Also regarding the OP's question: Well if determinism is in fact true, then your question is easily answered: We do so because we have no choice. Your question is faulty because it implicitly tries to sneak in a libertarian concept of free will into the conversation, which is the very thing determinism calls into question.
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 6:10 am
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2013 at 6:12 am by Koolay.)
(July 9, 2013 at 12:43 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: Also regarding the OP's question: Well if determinism is in fact true, then your question is easily answered: We do so because we have no choice. Your question is faulty because it implicitly tries to sneak in a libertarian concept of free will into the conversation, which is the very thing determinism calls into question.
It would fall into question if determinism provided any reason or evidence, but since they fail their own test of logic- I can safely say that it's wrong.
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 6:20 am
Your response was predictable.
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 6:26 am
(July 9, 2013 at 6:20 am)little_monkey Wrote: Your response was predictable.
No, it was predetermined.
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 6:27 am
(July 9, 2013 at 6:26 am)genkaus Wrote: (July 9, 2013 at 6:20 am)little_monkey Wrote: Your response was predictable.
No, it was predetermined.
It was both. 
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 6:38 am
(July 9, 2013 at 12:43 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: While I think it's to some extent silly to think that determinism is the default position, it is the position that has the lion's share of support in - and evidence from - the sciences and philosophy. That of course doesn't make it true, but it does give you an indication on where the evidence seems to point, by those academically involved with the concept.
Also regarding the OP's question: Well if determinism is in fact true, then your question is easily answered: We do so because we have no choice. Your question is faulty because it implicitly tries to sneak in a libertarian concept of free will into the conversation, which is the very thing determinism calls into question.
Yes? what is this evidence you speak of?
Since the clockwork Universe of Newton et al was given up decades ago and replaced by a chaotic and emergent one.
And since conscience entities can make unpredictable choices regardless of constraining circumstances determinism is a null concept.
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 6:50 am
(July 9, 2013 at 6:38 am)Zen Badger Wrote: And since conscience entities can make unpredictable choices regardless of constraining circumstances determinism is a null concept.
If you can't predict it, that proves determinism as a null concept? Seriously? That's what you're going for? Lack of knowledge or the ability to predict things = Oooh! Ghost!
?
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 6:56 am
(July 9, 2013 at 6:50 am)Red Celt Wrote: (July 9, 2013 at 6:38 am)Zen Badger Wrote: And since conscience entities can make unpredictable choices regardless of constraining circumstances determinism is a null concept.
If you can't predict it, that proves determinism as a null concept? Seriously? That's what you're going for? Lack of knowledge or the ability to predict things = Oooh! Ghost!
?
What is the test for determinism?
Making accurate predictions everytime.
And not just predicting that a rock will roll to the bottom of a hill, but accurately predicting its path including every bounce and tumble.
When you can do that, talk to me then.
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 8:03 am
(July 9, 2013 at 6:56 am)Zen Badger Wrote: What is the test for determinism?
Making accurate predictions everytime.
And not just predicting that a rock will roll to the bottom of a hill, but accurately predicting its path including every bounce and tumble.
When you can do that, talk to me then.
By that reckoning, flight was a nonsense prior to the Wright Brothers. Saying that we don't have the abilities to predict something complicated is not the same as saying that it is unpredictable. That is down to a lack of information (or processing power), rather than a lack of determinism.
The universe could exist with zero sentient life forms capable of such things... and still be deterministic. You're comparing apples with oranges.
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RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
July 9, 2013 at 11:52 am
(July 1, 2013 at 7:30 pm)Koolay Wrote: I have always considered determinism to be completely irrational for the following reason:
If a determinist is trying to convince me to change my mind and accept determinism, then he or she is accepting that I have free will and can choose between accepting the two theories.
It's like someone talking to you, saying "you can't hear anything" - well if I can't hear then why are you talking to me? Doesn't that make you completely irrational?
It's as simple as that, to win a debate with a determinist you just need to let the determinist talk.
The only reason why I think determinists have this position is not because of logical effort, (A child can tell you that an animal is different from a rock.) But it's more than likely that determinismt believes this to avoid responsibility for their actions, and let's face it, that's very attractive to some people.
It seems you are confusing determinism with determination.
They are not the same.
MM
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