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Pleasure and Joy
#1
Pleasure and Joy
Hi everybody. Here I am again with a new post. This post doesn’t consist any question related to theism or atheism rather it will highlight few aspects how we live our lives.

We get birth not because we have chosen it. A couple who start living in married life don’t have any idea whether it will get male child or female child or how he/she would look like.

Similarly, we live our lives in a fashion that when we are children we depend on our parents and when we are old we depend on our children or younger ones. Again, at the end of our lives we die not by our choice. Here you may say what suicide is. For me suicide is circumstances when someone left with no other choice then to kill himself. Those circumstances are not the choice of the person who commits suicide.

Nevertheless, there is a middle part of our lives where we live somewhat independent life in a style we chose. Even in this middle part, we are not totally independent beings. We depend upon our jobs, on our bosses, on our political leaders, on our workers or labour and other influential people or groups in our communities. We are slaves of each other. This is because we are weak enough to work out every requirement of our individual lives by our own selves. We cannot be farmer, tailor, Shoemaker, cook, doctor, teacher, etc., all in one time. We cannot live without using services of other members in our communities. In short, we are dependent on our societies and as a whole; we are dependent on other human beings.

Now after clarifying these limitations of our lives I jump over to the concept of pleasure and joy. We have our bodies, which have sensation of pain and pleasure in a physical way, and these senses generate our good or bad feelings. From where life comes into our bodies and when we die where it goes. It’s an absolute riddle.

We have senses of pain and pleasure yet we don’t know exactly what they are. We don’t like pain and we like pleasure that’s all we know. Science is so feeble that it can’t even give explanation to our different feelings like what is love and what is hate. Although every one of us experiencing in our daily lives the pleasure of love yet there is no tool that can prove scientifically what is love. If you say, “I love you” and your listener response “prove it” that makes you hang in the middle of air as you don’t know what to do next because you are a believer of science and science has no tools to help you out in this case.

There is a wish in every person to be respectful. If you are, a respectful man then people believes in your words without asking any proves. This helps you to achieve your targets with ease. That is why a religious leader or a secular politician tries to play with the psychology of his followers by giving example of lives scientifically unproven concepts, which appear in human feelings but they are not there in science.

In short, there is no way to experience feelings of others but you have a choice to believe or reject what other person has told you about his feelings based on your judgements and analyses.

Coming back to the topic of pleasure, the act of having pleasure have different side effects. These side effects can be destructive or constructive. There our activities that you call creative and destructive. A person gets involved in some kind of creative or destructive activity to have pleasure or satisfaction. In fact, in a community implementation of laws is to control activities of pleasure seekers to protect other members of the community from a possible harm.

Hitler is an example of destruction. He enjoyed his military superiority and he used all of his possibilities to have highest level of pleasure what he could get. I don’t have to tell what were the consequences.

Beethoven, Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare are few names who enjoyed creating art. Their activities brought pleasing aftereffects not only for themselves but also for their community members and for all of humanity.

Hitler is an extreme example of destructive pleasure. Man has nature that he enjoys giving pain to others. For instance, if I know, you love your mother more than any person and if I am a leg-puller then for sure I talk rude about your mother with intention to make you miserable. All these kinds of people are Hitler’s but at a relatively small scale.

People in this world lives with different ideologies. Everyone believes in something and loves something or someone. Everyone like pleasure and everyone hate pain and disgust. In general, normal people live peacefully with their ideologies, beliefs, religions. This is also a fact that not everybody is equal. Someone has more power to analyse things, someone is weaker physically, someone lives in environment where he cannot do much for his own welfare etc. But everyone is equal in a moral sense. A rich man has no right to treat a poor with bad manners. Likewise, a literate man has no right to laugh at illiterate man and make fun of his ideology based on discrimination. We can give reason to each other to convey our thoughts but we are no one to enforce our opinions over others because we like to do so for the sake of our joy.

The basic purpose of religion and law is to provide boundaries to human activities in order to keep them peaceful with each other. If some religion or ideology provoke it’s followers to feel superior over others that religion or ideology becomes the basis of human agonies. Man is not capable of comprehending every aspect of his own life. Without proper guidance, he may easily be trapped into false ideas. The problem here is how should we reform which instructions or laws are correct and which are not. For that, we should use our intellect that had been given by nature to us. We should study, compere, and analyse different laws simultaneously to come up with some opinion. We have to be sincere in our feelings while studying laws or instructions so that no personal preference over rule anything.

It is very easy to criticise or blame any ideology simply based on first impressions that we have about it. We don’t want to put efforts to learn the truth behind the scenes because we feel lazy. Laziness is another form of pleasure. It is this laziness that keeps us away from our learning process. This laziness also causes hatred, jealousy, vice, etc., when we see others as well-being compare to us. A lazy man don’t want to work but want to have everything and this attitude provoke him to use dangerous shortcuts for the satisfaction of pleasure requirements.

So I invite you all weather theist or atheist to have a proper study of each other’s ideology and religion before giving rash comments simply for the sake of causing bad feelings to each other. Tolerance and patience are your best friends.
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#2
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: Without proper guidance, he may easily be trapped into false ideas. The problem here is how should we reform which instructions or laws are correct and which are not. For that, we should use our intellect that had been given by nature to us. We have to be sincere in our feelings while studying laws or instructions so that no personal preference over rule anything.

Being atheist means that one is no longer trapped by those false religious ideas. After all, it is the goal of the church to control the masses by stating that any idea outside of its dogma is false. Obviously, religious instructions are not something to which a healthy minded individual should adhere. It is too bad that religious people do not use the intellect with which they were born, because they still believe as they were brainwashed into believing. As far as law is concerned, the founding fathers got it right in stating that there should be a separation of church and state.

(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: We don’t want to put efforts to learn the truth behind the scenes because we feel lazy. Laziness is another form of pleasure. It is this laziness that keeps us away from our learning process.

I have to agree with you here. Religious people have become so scientifically and logically lazy that they would rather believe in a magical sky daddy than understand that accepting the existence of a divine deity is a byproduct of intellectual laziness.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#3
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: If some religion or ideology provoke it’s followers to feel superior over others that religion or ideology becomes the basis of human agonies.

Strangely enough, I agree with most of what you are saying here. That being said, none of what you laid out here requires a god of any sort to achieve.

However, the line quoted above smacks of extreme hypocrisy coming from you.

I believe your koran tells you that unbelievers (infidels) are to be killed. That sounds to me very much like the book saying its religion is superior to others and I think that muslim-caused "human agonies" are pretty well documented.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Einstein
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#4
RE: Pleasure and Joy



"It is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

— Macbeth



[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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#5
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(May 8, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Maelstrom Wrote:
(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: Without proper guidance, he may easily be trapped into false ideas. The problem here is how should we reform which instructions or laws are correct and which are not. For that, we should use our intellect that had been given by nature to us. We have to be sincere in our feelings while studying laws or instructions so that no personal preference over rule anything.

Being atheist means that one is no longer trapped by those false religious ideas. After all, it is the goal of the church to control the masses by stating that any idea outside of its dogma is false. Obviously, religious instructions are not something to which a healthy minded individual should adhere. It is too bad that religious people do not use the intellect with which they were born, because they still believe as they were brainwashed into believing. As far as law is concerned, the founding fathers got it right in stating that there should be a separation of church and state.

(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: We don’t want to put efforts to learn the truth behind the scenes because we feel lazy. Laziness is another form of pleasure. It is this laziness that keeps us away from our learning process.

I have to agree with you here. Religious people have become so scientifically and logically lazy that they would rather believe in a magical sky daddy than understand that accepting the existence of a divine deity is a byproduct of intellectual laziness.

Being atheist means that one is no longer trapped by those false religious ideas. After all, it is the goal of the church to control the masses by stating that any idea outside of its dogma is false. Obviously, religious instructions are not something to which a healthy minded individual should adhere. It is too bad that religious people do not use the intellect with which they were born, because they still believe as they were brainwashed into believing. As far as law is concerned, the founding fathers got it right in stating that there should be a separation of church and state.

In my post i wrote
People in this world lives with different ideologies. Everyone believes in something and loves something or someone.

This phrase I put for special purpose. being atheist you don't believe in religion thats ok as you think its correct. But that doesn't mean that you have refused to follow all laws in the world. Without following some law you simply can't survive. You are not following religion but you are following constitution of your country. If you deny your country’s law then you automatically get a label of rebel.
If you prefer constitution of your country as guidelines for your life its your preference but like you don’t consider riligion to be on the right path that’s how some people critise over constitution as well. These people are not necessarily be religious people. And I think you will agree that in the world there is no constitution which is perfect.

I have to agree with you here. Religious people have become so scientifically and logically lazy that they would rather believe in a magical sky daddy than understand that accepting the existence of a divine deity is a byproduct of intellectual laziness.

You can’t apply lazyness only over riligious people. Lazyness is a property of every human being whether riligious or not. Man is looking for excuses to be lazy. For instance atheist can took some wrong deeds of religious people and based on that baned himself to acquire the proper knowledge. The same is applicable to a rigilious man. Acquiring knowledge demand efforts and mental labour is something which is not attractive for most of the people.

(May 8, 2013 at 2:51 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:
(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: If some religion or ideology provoke it’s followers to feel superior over others that religion or ideology becomes the basis of human agonies.

Strangely enough, I agree with most of what you are saying here. That being said, none of what you laid out here requires a god of any sort to achieve.

However, the line quoted above smacks of extreme hypocrisy coming from you.

I believe your koran tells you that unbelievers (infidels) are to be killed. That sounds to me very much like the book saying its religion is superior to others and I think that muslim-caused "human agonies" are pretty well documented.

The purpose of my post is to invite people for having a proper knowledge.
As being a Muslim I am facing this critique quite often. I don’t argue with the critique maker as I know they have not read the Quran and they had not tried to research because of their laziness.

In response I’ll give you one example

American president said
‘Kill every Vietnami wherever you find him’

With this phrase I made the president a butcher. Why, because I have quoted him out of the context. So, these are the tactics of a propaganda machine that is trying to change the view point of general public so the politicians achieve their targets without any opposition from their own followers.

In order to understand each other in a better way we have to have a proper knowledge on each others ideologies.

I registered myself on this site because I don’t have proper knowledge about atheism and I am keen to learn before giving some conclusive opinion.

(May 8, 2013 at 5:54 pm)apophenia Wrote:


"It is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

— Macbeth




sounds something familiar.
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#6
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(May 8, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Religious people have become so scientifically and logically lazy that they would rather believe in a magical sky daddy than understand that accepting the existence of a divine deity is a byproduct of intellectual laziness.
Often times I feel the same, and I'm also guilty of making fun of some of our religious contemporaries. But then I heard Sam Harris's talk on Free Will and what, if it is indeed an illusion, the consequences would be: We would have to have ultimate compassion with everyone because nobody is really in charge of what happens in their life (*). If I would've been born in a Southern Baptist state I might have need to believe these stories as well, and that is quite a humbling thought.

(*) now of course applying this to ourselfs is a fallacy and indeed would be lazy. There's a significant difference between applying this to how we feel about other's actions and our own... it's a bit paradoxical, I admit...
"Men see clearly enough the barbarity of all ages — except their own!" — Ernest Crosby.
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#7
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(May 8, 2013 at 5:54 pm)apophenia Wrote: It is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
...the world according to anti-atheism. They keep trying to draw water from empty wells.
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#8
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: It is very easy to criticise or blame any ideology simply based on first impressions that we have about it. We don’t want to put efforts to learn the truth behind the scenes because we feel lazy. Laziness is another form of pleasure. It is this laziness that keeps us away from our learning process. This laziness also causes hatred, jealousy, vice, etc., when we see others as well-being compare to us. A lazy man don’t want to work but want to have everything and this attitude provoke him to use dangerous shortcuts for the satisfaction of pleasure requirements.

I think it is fear, moreso than laziness, that will keep a person from stepping outside of his or her comfort zone. I think that above all, we crave comfort, in every possible way. Not knowing the truth of a matter does not provide comfort, and so we will seek answers. Or, if answers are not forthcoming, we may accept any explanation. And if we need to suppress our ability to reason in order to be convinced, we may do so.

I was reading a book on psychology, and one thing that researchers found was that we will seek out information that reinforces what we believe, while we will avoid information that challenges it. There are areas where we will not follow that script (example- theists who come here to challenge and be challenged) but in most of our life, we will cling securely to the things we believe and we will protect those views and beliefs far more actively than we may think. I believe we do this because it comforts us.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#9
RE: Pleasure and Joy
(May 21, 2013 at 10:14 am)Tonus Wrote: I think it is fear, moreso than laziness, that will keep a person from stepping outside of his or her comfort zone...

Hi Tonus,

First, I should say your response is one of the most pleasing and joyful one to read. It is a very logical and full of positive ideas.

Secondly, I am sorry for writing my response after a substantial amount of time. I was trapped in other activities, which had not let me concentrate over this forum.

You truly said comfort is something that nobody wants to lose at any cost. In fact, comfort is one of the most common types of pleasures we have in our lives. The least form of comfort is when a hungry person gets something to eat. The extreme form of comfort is when someone gets a possession over other human beings. Human desires are not limited to some boundary wall but it is more than that. Jean-Paul Sartre had depicted this human faculty in a very nice way:

“Human reality is the pure effort to become God without there being any given substratum for that effort, without there being anything which so endeavors. Desire expresses this endeavor.”
Page 576 Being and Nothingness

He continues on page 599
“Thus, my freedom is a choice of being God and all my acts, all my projects translate this choice and reflect it in a thousand and one ways, for there is an infinity of ways of being and of ways of having.”

Therefore, desire of having comfort has no standards. Demand of comfort varies from person to person. Main idea here is to have a control over uncontrollable desires. Our physical bodies are like wild horses. Our safety depends over how good we control over our desires. Freedom is only good in an accompaniment of patience. It is the patience, which keeps us peaceful in a society.

You are right on the point; most of us have a fear to lose our comfort. However, the after effect of this fear appears within our characters as a kind of repulsion from others. This behaviour provokes doubts, which are the main cause of misconception and misunderstanding. All problems among naïve people are due to these misconceptions about each other’s ideologies. Of course, black sheep in the society always sit in ambush for such misconceptions, which provides them better environment to have unjust possessions without any limits.

The best way (in my opinion) is to give some room to rather discomforting ideas for the purpose of check and balance over our own behaviours. Many times in our lives, it happened that the concepts at which we were looking pessimistically were turned out to be most favourable after we give ourselves a chance to ponder over them. It is totally against the logic and intellect to be credulous or incredulous based on our first impressions. We should give a chance to our own beings to be flexible in order to adjust even in intimidating circumstances. Flexibility in our thoughts always gives us opportunity to look into new dimensions of life. Stiffness is only the cause of a break and destruction.

For a child injection is always a fearful thing as it gives instantaneous pain. It is because the child is unaware of the higher benefits of having an injection. He only concentrates over the immediate cause of the needle.

cheers
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#10
RE: Pleasure and Joy
Quote:We have senses of pain and pleasure yet we don’t know exactly what they are. We don’t like pain and we like pleasure that’s all we know.

Some people like pain and find it pleasurable. Some people can feel bad receiving pleasure, like feeling guilty for example, so this statement is basically false because of its over simplification in my opinion, the human brain is too complex to make broad statements like this.


Quote:Science is so feeble that it can’t even give explanation to our different feelings like what is love and what is hate.

I think science has come closest to finding out about these feelings, the chemicals involved, the processes behind them and why we feel them, even in fairly complex situations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_basis_of_love

Quote:If you say, “I love you” and your listener response “prove it” that makes you hang in the middle of air as you don’t know what to do next because you are a believer of science and science has no tools to help you out in this case.

Basically a way of you implying if you don't believe in the supernatural you can't prove your love.
The word love doesn't just have one meaning, think of the expression "making love" then think of "love thy neighbor" or "mmmm i love the taste of potato"
I can't think of a single way where someone who believes in a flying horse is a vehicle to heaven could prove their love and which I couldn't do the same.

Quote:If some religion or ideology provoke it’s followers to feel superior over others that religion or ideology becomes the basis of human agonies.
I totally agree with you.

"O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

Indeed, those who disbelieved and averted [people] from the path of Allah and then died while they were disbelievers - never will Allah forgive them.
So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior; and Allah is with you and will never deprive you of [the reward of] your deeds.

The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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