Free Will, Free Won't?

[gilbertc06]

I know all about the subconscious but I'm saying you're mistaken in thinking that the subconscious somehow commands us. We can consciously override an suggestions it gives us with the higher part of our brain function. It's this part of the brain that allows us to have freewill. The lower animals may well lack this ability.

That is the problem with every single attempt to say we have free will (in the libertarian sense). If you're going to suggest some sort of substance (dualism) or higher brain function that is supposed to 'give' us free will, you're not thinking it through enough. If this other substance or higher brain function behaves in determined ways, there is no 'I' 'choosing' what to do, it is simply acting as its nature dictates. But if this substance or higher brain function behaves indeterministically, then there is still no control over it, it's behavior is unpredictable, random, and thus not controlled; it simply acts.

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As far as people know, they are locked into a biological body. Forget about idealogy or social structures. By the simple fact that people need water to live, there is no true free will.

No concept of free will has ever meant anything like the ability to do anything, like not having biological dependencies.

It's what those biological dependencies lead to. You can say right now that you would never ever ever eat a human being. That can all change if you are out in the middle of the pacific with just you and 2 other people.

Then there's the everyday stuff. Why do you think advertisers always go the 'sex' route? Because it works.

[MindForgedManacle]

It's what those biological dependencies lead to. You can say right now that you would never ever ever eat a human being. That can all change if you are out in the middle of the pacific with just you and 2 other people.

Saying something can change is not equivalent to it being the case that it will change. Said person could choose to die rather than eat the other person.

Then there's the everyday stuff. Why do you think advertisers always go the 'sex' route? Because it works.

Manipulation of something we're attracted to - again - doesn't entail that said attraction will make one do anything. If such was the case advertisers would be raking in even more than they do now. Further, this still misunderstands the usual conception of free will (the libertarian view), which is that - to oversimplify it - even if everything was the same in a given situation in which multiple options were available, you could have done otherwise. In other words, for that view of free will, inclinations are possible where choice is concerned, but not necessitations.

[*Deidre*]

I don’t care for the phrase ‘free will.’ It’s religion’s way of excusing bad choices. Our lives are made up of choices. Some of those choices can be affected certainly by events that could have been out of our control. (example, you were abused as a child, perhaps now you’ve become very guarded as an adult, and therefore, many of your ‘choices’ stem from that worldview) Free will is a meaningless, trite phrase in my opinion. Of course we have ‘free will.’ It’s called choice. With choices, come responsibility. Religious people will look at the world, and when bad things happen say…well, God gave us ‘free will.’ No shit we have free will, but it’s just a matter of semantics. Have never understood the need to attach a Diety to my ability to make bad or good choices. The same religious person will say when a person makes a good choice, ‘’That’s God at work.’’ When that same person makes a bad/immoral choice …’’Well, God gave us free will.’’ I dislike this idea, because it implies that if there exists a god, he must be a puppeteer and we are the puppets, but only when something positive happens.

[ManMachine]

I don’t care for the phrase ‘free will.’ It’s religion’s way of excusing bad choices. Our lives are made up of choices. Some of those choices can be affected certainly by events that could have been out of our control. (example, you were abused as a child, perhaps now you’ve become very guarded as an adult, and therefore, many of your ‘choices’ stem from that worldview) Free will is a meaningless, trite phrase in my opinion. Of course we have ‘free will.’ It’s called choice. With choices, come responsibility. Religious people will look at the world, and when bad things happen say…well, God gave us ‘free will.’ No shit we have free will, but it’s just a matter of semantics. Have never understood the need to attach a Diety to my ability to make bad or good choices. The same religious person will say when a person makes a good choice, ‘’That’s God at work.’’ When that same person makes a bad/immoral choice …’’Well, God gave us free will.’’ I dislike this idea, because it implies that if there exists a god, he must be a puppeteer and we are the puppets, but only when something positive happens.

Making 'choices' implies some kind of cognitive process. The question of 'Free will' in this particular case is essentially about how much conscious control we have over that process and how much is subconscious.

You are quite right, religion has invested heavily in the concept of free will, because this gives Theologians an excuse to pass off poor behaviour as 'not the work of god' and good behaviour as divinely influenced. Without 'free will' god is reduced to some kind of twisted weirdo that from time to time makes people commit morally reprehensible acts for his/her/its own amusement.

To quote a great man 'This is, of course, a load of fetid dingo's kidneys'.


MM

[*Deidre*]

I don’t care for the phrase ‘free will.’ It’s religion’s way of excusing bad choices. Our lives are made up of choices. Some of those choices can be affected certainly by events that could have been out of our control. (example, you were abused as a child, perhaps now you’ve become very guarded as an adult, and therefore, many of your ‘choices’ stem from that worldview) Free will is a meaningless, trite phrase in my opinion. Of course we have ‘free will.’ It’s called choice. With choices, come responsibility. Religious people will look at the world, and when bad things happen say…well, God gave us ‘free will.’ No shit we have free will, but it’s just a matter of semantics. Have never understood the need to attach a Diety to my ability to make bad or good choices. The same religious person will say when a person makes a good choice, ‘’That’s God at work.’’ When that same person makes a bad/immoral choice …’’Well, God gave us free will.’’ I dislike this idea, because it implies that if there exists a god, he must be a puppeteer and we are the puppets, but only when something positive happens.

Making 'choices' implie

s some kind of cognitive process. The question of 'Free will' in this particular case is essentially about how much conscious control we have over that process and how much is subconscious.

You are quite right, religion has invested heavily in the concept of free will, because this gives Theologians an excuse to pass off poor behaviour as 'not the work of god' and good behaviour as divinely influenced. Without 'free will' god is reduced to some kind of twisted weirdo that from time to time makes people commit morally reprehensible acts for his/her/its own amusement.

To quote a great man 'This is, of course, a load of fetid dingo's kidneys'.


MM

Yes, I'd say far more is subconscious than we would like to admit, studies to prove or disprove that, aside. In my own life experiences, I have difficulty making decisions, for example, and I know that comes from a place deep down in my subconscious that hasn't healed from childhood wounds. I can "consciously" try to rise above it and often I do, but I still stress when having to make important life decisions because my upbringing taught me to doubt myself. It is nearly automatic to second guess myself on many occasions. The subconscious can have a mind of its own. (no pun) . Good points you make.