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(February 14, 2010 at 7:52 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You were born naked and hungry and by some means you have to feed and clothe yourself with and without the help of parents. You're born selfish - babies are manipulative, greedy etc... you learn to coexist. No difference.
So how does this make you a sinner condemned to eternal hellfire if you don't beg forgiveness?
If you live an unhealthy life you reap what you sow.
(February 16, 2010 at 7:16 pm)peace2u Wrote:
(February 15, 2010 at 8:22 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How is that contradictory P2U?
Born of/ has the propensity ... it isn't passed up or down... you own it.
I'm just commenting on the concept of the original sin. Mainstream Christian believe that every man is born sinful taught by the Churches. Well, this teaching goes against the verse in the Bible. I thought I was clear enough.
That text (Ezekial) doesn't say that to me P2U (what was your translation? - I can't find anything remotely similar). Man's fallibility is established in the Adam and Eve story. ...or do you disagree with that? The concept is: that people are not perfect but in need of correction ...that's very basic theology. Civilised society reflects the same thing to an extent as children are taught that selfishness and greed are counter productive.
(February 14, 2010 at 7:52 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You were born naked and hungry and by some means you have to feed and clothe yourself with and without the help of parents. You're born selfish - babies are manipulative, greedy etc... you learn to coexist. No difference.
So how does this make you a sinner condemned to eternal hellfire if you don't beg forgiveness?
If you live an unhealthy life you reap what you sow.
(February 16, 2010 at 7:16 pm)peace2u Wrote:
(February 15, 2010 at 8:22 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How is that contradictory P2U?
Born of/ has the propensity ... it isn't passed up or down... you own it.
I'm just commenting on the concept of the original sin. Mainstream Christian believe that every man is born sinful taught by the Churches. Well, this teaching goes against the verse in the Bible. I thought I was clear enough.
That text (Ezekial) doesn't say that to me P2U (what was your translation? - I can't find anything remotely similar). Man's fallibility is established in the Adam and Eve story. ...or do you disagree with that? The concept is: that people are not perfect but in need of correction ...that's very basic theology. Civilised society reflects the same thing to an extent as children are taught that selfishness and greed are counter productive.
Civilized society has also come much further than the conflicting stories and ambiguous moral values of scripture.
According to mainstream Christianity, and correct me if I'm wrong, I was born a sinner. And even if I wasn't then I became one simply by virtue of being a human and leading a human life. This is the case not only for me, but for every other human on the face of the planet.
Why is it then that we have to ask for forgiveness for something that not only is absolutely no fault of our own but also is a quality or trait that was pre-destined for us before we were born?
(February 14, 2010 at 6:32 am)Darwinian Wrote: Book of Ezekiel, Chapter 20 verse 18: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him"
This is actually a misquote you meant Ezekial Chapter 18 vs 20. It is a simple statment that you will not be punished because you have inherited any sin, only for your own willful sins shall you be punished. I think we can all agree to that interpretation.
In response to the OP:
1-Correct you are a sinner, based off the mainstream Christian belief, as is everyone currently on the planet.
2-Why? Ok here's my 2 cents. It is your fault first of all. Secondly, I don't personally feel it was predestined but a matter of choice.
A- Let's start by looking at Adam and Eve as infants prior to original sin.
B- I see them with an ability to define or name they're surroundings, trust in each other and God, and look forward to the future establishing hope.
C- Now let's add the knowledge of morality and that some things are wrong and some are right with the tree of knowledge metaphor.
D- This wasn't God's plan, but our choice to let our curisoity drive us to discontent.
E- We then start developing shame, and are foced out of God's perfect world, again metaphorically.
F- We are then forced to be self-sufficient rather than symbiotic with God, and the rest of the stages develop into modern cognitive evolution
G- The fact that we continue to, to this today, in adulthood, rather than return to a more simplistic relationship with the creator is a matter of choice
Once we have the ability, as children, to reason moral ambiguity we become sinners by seeking self-sufficiency. That's why Children in my church are usually refused baptism, without justifiable reasoning capacity, my son included. Living morally Just is, in itself alone, not enough to get into heaven in my book. We must accept that God provides all and that we are not self-sufficient, self-sustaining animal who evolved consciouness. Where we now seek to fufill those needs through others (family community, etc.) that was not teh intenct and sacrificing the self and being born again is freedom from that. Sorry if I got a little preachy on that one :S Just my opinion as a Christian, shared by many Christians.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(February 17, 2010 at 12:43 am)tavarish Wrote: Civilized society has also come much further than the conflicting stories and ambiguous moral values of scripture.
Not as far actually. And funny how in this instance you seem to be distancing the result from the influence you so readily attribute otherwise
February 17, 2010 at 4:05 pm (This post was last modified: February 17, 2010 at 4:06 pm by tavarish.)
(February 17, 2010 at 4:31 am)fr0d0 Wrote:
(February 17, 2010 at 12:43 am)tavarish Wrote: Civilized society has also come much further than the conflicting stories and ambiguous moral values of scripture.
Not as far actually. And funny how in this instance you seem to be distancing the result from the influence you so readily attribute otherwise
You're right, we still have:
Stoning for heresy and adultery
Crucifixion
Witch burning
Slavery
Polygamy and ownership of women
Flat Earth Theory
No standard of verification
Totalitarian theocracies
Low literacy rate
Faith healers as primary caregivers
I can't think of any ways we've changed from the Bible's examples of humanity.
But then again any change would have to be attributed to God by default, wouldn't it?
(February 17, 2010 at 4:26 am)tackattack Wrote: Just my opinion as a Christian, shared by many Christians.
Why quit on reason?
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
no not quitting reason,, just a little apologetic for my preachment, and tired at the time for sure. I tend to shut down mentally right before I go home from work so I can sleep.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(February 18, 2010 at 4:55 am)tackattack Wrote: no not quitting reason,, just a little apologetic for my preachment, and tired at the time for sure. I tend to shut down mentally right before I go home from work so I can sleep.
You sleep on the way home!!!!
I hope you take the bus.
I live about .8 miles from work so I've probably slept drove it once or twice.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
