Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[KUSA]

I find it very frustrating that all you do to justify cruelty to animals is appeal to nature

And you appeal to pity (Argumentum ad misericordiam). Oh the poor little animals. They are all crying on death row.

[bennyboy]

I find it very frustrating that all you do to justify cruelty to animals is appeal to nature

And you appeal to pity (Argumentum ad misericordiam). Oh the poor little animals. They are all crying on death row.

Finding Latin for something doesn't make it a fallacy, especially when you are using the term wrongly.

If a man has locked up a little girl in his basement, and the parents say, "Please give us our baby back, because losing her is breaking our hearts!" he doesn't get to claim argumentum ad misericordiam, as the suffering of the child and its parents is excplicitly linked to his behavior, and he has no moral grounds for inflicting captivity (or any other type of harm) on them. On the other hand, if I try to get out of my speeding tickets, arguing that I've had a bad week and having to pay them is going to hurt my feelings too much-- that's a fallacy, as my feelings are irrelevant to the ticket-paying process.

In the case of the animals, they haven't irrationally said something like, "You have to put purple flowers in our fields, or we will be heartbroken." Their suffering is explicitly linked to our dietary tendencies, and the way we breed and treat them. But there is no moral ground for inflicting suffering on them, as they are not in any way complicit, and have not done anything to earn mistreatment.

[Aractus]

I don't think you know what these words actually mean.

I know what draconian means, but I don't think you do....

[KichigaiNeko]

Perhaps they are taking YouTube vids like this seriously Daniel?

http://youtu.be/-ssXJtzFOjA

[James2014]

I don't think you know what these words actually mean.

I know what draconian means, but I don't think you do....

What are you talking about? How is debating in an internet forum draconian? You advocate the murder of animals just to satisfy your desires to eat meat, that sounds far more draconian to me.

[Tripwire]

I am 16 and cannot afford a vegan diet, so I eat anything I can get as of now. When I turn 18 I hope to become one.

[Aractus]

How is debating in an internet forum draconian?

No, she said that your tactics draconian, and they are.

You advocate the murder of animals just to satisfy your desires to eat meat, that sounds far more draconian to me.

Um, not so much.

Firstly, there's hunting pest species that require culling for the good of biodiversity - in Australia that'd be kangaroo. Although only a small portion of roo is fit for human consumption, the remainder can and is used in pet food, and the skin can be used for fur/leather products. In Canada it's seals. This culls are taken place for the good of biodiversity and not at all primarily as a food source for humans.

Next we have farming, now I've argued already with you that wool is an absolutely essential product. And let's not pretend that it's not economically important too - meat and animal products like wool and other animal hairs etc are a very significant portion of our exports. But back on track we have products that are dependant on wool. Let me ask you - are your car seats wool? Did you - an ethical vegan - remove the wool and replace it with uncomfortable Vinyl??

Dairy is one of the most important things that we have. Especially if you are in a situation where you may not be able to eat meat.

I drink low-fat milk. Yes I enjoy full-cream milk, but I very rarely indulge. I almost always use low fat cheese on anything. As I mentioned in my diet thread, I've switched to unadulterated black coffee now, which I'm loving.

You've had your opportunity to produce evidence against dairy - and you've failed. Health professionals say dairy is very healthy, you and your vegan pals say it isn't. But your claims are frivolous and can't be backed up by contemporary medical wisdom - or by science.

One of the interesting things that strikes me in this thread is your use of outdated and bad information - this I know is used for other things like batty hens, etc, where videos recorded in the 80's in far off countries are attempted to be passed off as representative of the culture I live in - but you're doing the same thing with your claims of science.

Some of the benefits you claim of vegetarianism are long since disproved and forgotten, but you cling on to them unable/unwilling to look at objective evidence.

[KichigaiNeko]

What I would like to see is vegetarians getting off their privileged first world ever expanding and petrochemical butts and taking on iSlamic countries for the "crimes" of animal cruelty.

No? Just like they refuse to target motorcycle riders for the useage of leather?

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to the mad house Tripwire ( I haven't seen your intro thread at this point, so forgive me)

As for vegetarianism ...do yourself a favour and wait until you are twenty something to go that route.

[là bạn điên]

What I would like to see is vegetarians getting off their privileged first world ever expanding and petrochemical butts and taking on iSlamic countries for the "crimes" of animal cruelty.

What makes you think we don't. I campaign for mandatory labelling of all meat that has been halal slaughtered so that people can avoid it. I boycott any establishment that does not label halal meat as such.

[James2014]

I am 16 and cannot afford a vegan diet, so I eat anything I can get as of now. When I turn 18 I hope to become one.

Hi Tripwire, That's great. My advice would be that when you do decide to become vegan that you should remember that a healthy vegan stays vegan. Just remember to eat enough calories (ie cook food with a healthy amount of olive oil for example), eat foods with fortified vitamins (like soya milk or breakfast cereals) and take a multivitamin (a cheap one from a supermarket is just as good as an expensive one). And of course plenty of fruit, vegetables, whole grains and beans

Eating vegan diet with lots of pre-prepared processed food can indeed be very expensive. Here are some ideas to eating vegan on a budget.

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No, she said that your tactics draconian, and they are.

what tactics have I been using that are draconian?

Firstly, there's hunting pest species that require culling for the good of biodiversity - in Australia that'd be kangaroo. Although only a small portion of roo is fit for human consumption, the remainder can and is used in pet food, and the skin can be used for fur/leather products. In Canada it's seals. This culls are taken place for the good of biodiversity and not at all primarily as a food source for humans.


Killing for biodiversity is certainly more justified than the murder of animals just to eat them, however the fact remains there are better ways to achieve this end. e.g. supporting the return of predators, reducing the rate reproduction in those animals


[quote]Next we have farming, now I've argued already with you that wool is an absolutely essential product. And let's not pretend that it's not economically important too - meat and animal products like wool and other animal hairs etc are a very significant portion of our exports. But back on track we have products that are dependant on wool. Let me ask you - are your car seats wool? Did you - an ethical vegan - remove the wool and replace it with uncomfortable Vinyl??

No, I don't own a car. But if I did yes a synthetic fibre like vinyl would be fine.


[quote]Dairy is one of the most important things that we have. Especially if you are in a situation where you may not be able to eat meat.

I drink low-fat milk. Yes I enjoy full-cream milk, but I very rarely indulge. I almost always use low fat cheese on anything. As I mentioned in my diet thread, I've switched to unadulterated black coffee now, which I'm loving.

You've had your opportunity to produce evidence against dairy - and you've failed. Health professionals say dairy is very healthy, you and your vegan pals say it isn't. But your claims are frivolous and can't be backed up by contemporary medical wisdom - or by science.

One of the interesting things that strikes me in this thread is your use of outdated and bad information - this I know is used for other things like batty hens, etc, where videos recorded in the 80's in far off countries are attempted to be passed off as representative of the culture I live in - but you're doing the same thing with your claims of science.

Some of the benefits you claim of vegetarianism are long since disproved and forgotten, but you cling on to them unable/unwilling to look at objective evidence.

I have already provided evidence that a vegan diet is healthier than vegetarianism. They are both however significantly healthier than an omnivorous diet. Eating lots of dairy instead of meat is certainly going to improve health, however veganism is healthier still.



Now, as I said before, let alone all the evidence I have quoted, why would the why would the biggest professional body of nutritionists (the American Dietetic Association, although now called the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics) in the US, and indeed the world, agree that a vegan and vegetarian diet is healthy and protective against a number of diseases? The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is not just a few crazies, they are recognized by the United States Department of Education as the only professional body that can accredit professional dietetic education programs! Are they all lying too? If all the evidence I, and they, have quoted is outdated, then provide some links to this updated evidence.