Thunderf00t vs. Feminism

[DeistPaladin]

I am also curious as how to feminism in its current incarnation is equipped to solve these issues, particularly how feminists are better equipped to solve these issues then egalitarians.

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure what the distinction is either. As it has been defined for me, feminism IS egalitarianism as applied to gender issues.

[Lemonvariable72]

I am also curious as how to feminism in its current incarnation is equipped to solve these issues, particularly how feminists are better equipped to solve these issues then egalitarians.

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure what the distinction is either. As it has been defined for me, feminism IS egalitarianism as applied to gender issues.

I can tell you one major difference that makes a egalitarian far better equipped to deal modern issues. It is not in the defining of the labels so much as the practice of the people that take them. From what I see is that some feminists use the term to try to silence any dissent from their views, making all feminists look bad. With egalitarianism you simply don't have this taint from extremists.

[Ben Davis]

IMO, DeistPaladin hit the nail on the head: Tf00t's using sweeping generalisations and that puts him in the wrong, even when he's getting things right.

Citation needed.

Tut, now I've got to re-watch a whole bunch of vids that I don't want to, just to support my position...

:waaahmbulance

[Jenny A]

<snip>
Generally speaking, when we notice we get into the same relationships over and over, there's a reason.

Yep.

---

I have a question here. If moderate feminists are the majority then how come we see so few of them speaking? But instead we see so much of these hateful people like sarkesian or sue choi? Infact why would a moderate feminist when there are other titles describing a belief in equality where you do have to spend half your time explaining "no, I'm not like those but jobs"

We do speak up. It's just that it's not news to ask for equal opportunity rather than special privilege, or not to be physically assaulted. And frankly, I didn't find much in the way of discrimination in the work place. Twenty years ago I suffered no discrimination in law offices. It's better now.

What little harassment I suffered was easily handled personally and privately. For example, I had a co-worker make lewd but appreciative comments about what my sweater dress did for my ass. I pinched his and made similar comments followed by, "you see why this isn't appropriate here." The co-worker blushed and in the end I got friend and ally out of the deal. Publicity would have wreaked that.

If I've suffered any discrimination it is as a stay at home educated mom and the discrimination is feminist. Radical feminists think that by staying home to raise the kids I betrayed the cause. ---- Sorry, but it's my life and part of equality is getting to choose what you want without having your entire gender judged by that choice.

[Lemonvariable72]

<snip>
Generally speaking, when we notice we get into the same relationships over and over, there's a reason.

Yep.

---

I have a question here. If moderate feminists are the majority then how come we see so few of them speaking? But instead we see so much of these hateful people like sarkesian or sue choi? Infact why would a moderate feminist when there are other titles describing a belief in equality where you do have to spend half your time explaining "no, I'm not like those but jobs"

We do speak up. It's just that it's not news to ask for equal opportunity rather than special privilege, or not to be physically assaulted. And frankly, I didn't find much in the way of discrimination in the work place. Twenty years ago I suffered no discrimination in law offices. It's better now.

What little harassment I suffered was easily handled personally and privately. For example, I had a co-worker make lewd but appreciative comments about what my sweater dress did for my ass. I pinched his and made similar comments followed by, "you see why this isn't appropriate here." The co-worker blushed and in the end I got friend and ally out of the deal. Publicity would have wreaked that.

If I've suffered any discrimination it is as a stay at home educated mom and the discrimination is feminist. Radical feminists think that by staying home to raise the kids I betrayed the cause. ---- Sorry, but it's my life and part of equality is getting to choose what you want without having your entire gender judged by that choice.

Well then perhaps its time to reconsider your label. Another reason I suggest this changing of label is because everytime you calmly explain that feminism is about equality you end up looking like a hypocrite every time a extremist exclaims something stupid like all sex is rape.
The point I'm getting at is that the extremists need to be called out, and moderate feminists need to stop defending them against people that call them on their bullshit. If this doesn't happen then eventually the population will get fed up with the whole thing and write off the entire movement. They will end losing women more rights then they gain them

[Madness20]

I feel people give way too much importance about what some psychopathic misandrists and misogynists like to brainlessly say. And please just don't throw "equalitarianism" in the middle, because it's a lie.
Everyone is different, there are some people that want to be treated equally and others that don't, and that's just the way it is.

[Lemonvariable72]

I feel people give way too much importance about what some psychopathic misandrists and misogynists like to brainlessly say. And please just don't throw "equalitarianism" in the middle, because it's a lie.
Everyone is different, there are some people that want to be treated equally and others that don't, and that's just the way it is.

Yes, and those calling out the pyschopaths do not deserve to be called sexist when they are not, and people fighting for a good should not be burdened by them.

[Jenny A]

Well then perhaps its time to reconsider your label. Another reason I suggest this changing of label is because everytime you calmly explain that feminism is about equality you end up looking like a hypocrite every time a extremist exclaims something stupid like all sex is rape.
The point I'm getting at is that the extremists need to be called out, and moderate feminists need to stop defending them against people that call them on their bullshit. If this doesn't happen then eventually the population will get fed up with the whole thing and write off the entire movement. They will end losing women more rights then they gain them

It's simpler to just explain I'm for gender equality and let it go at that.

The problem of extremists is a problem born by every movement from those who are for racial equality, to those for religious freedom, to those for and against abortion, and so on. Name a movement and I'll find you some extremists. I don't defend them. But I don't waste time calling them all out either. Mostly they are so ridiculous as to be hardly worth the bother.

Emma Watson did a pretty good job recently of tackling both feminism and extremism. But it won't rein in the extremists who appear to live largely in la la land or college campuses.

[MJ the Skeptical]

*Snortle* Are you for real?

You don't get to define what feminism is. Sure, you can pick some strange positions (#KillAllMen, srsly?) and decide for yourself that that's your definition of feminism.

I never said it was the definition of feminism. The definition is irrelevant when it comes to their words and actions. From my view, Feminists are the ones trying to conflate the definition of feminism with Egalitarianism. When Feminism is gender inclusive.

However, you kind of knock yourself out of the conversation with this one, because it's not a definiton that most feminists would accept.
I could just as well define that feminism is Hitler, and then prove that it's evil. That's not giving you any new insights.

I don't think you read my post with much objectivity, I must say. Especially since I didn't define feminism as people writing #killallmen. I even went out of my way to say that they are not all like that. There is nuance here, you know.

Also, sure, women have all the rights in the western world, and the poor men are so marginalized, there are barely any left!

How does that negate the fact that women in the western world have more rights? oh right, it doesn't.

[The Valkyrie]

I feel people give way too much importance about what some psychopathic misandrists and misogynists like to brainlessly say. And please just don't throw "equalitarianism" in the middle, because it's a lie.
Everyone is different, there are some people that want to be treated equally and others that don't, and that's just the way it is.

Yes, and those calling out the pyschopaths do not deserve to be called sexist when they are not, and people fighting for a good should not be burdened by them.

It works both ways.

I've seen the idiocy directed at Emma Watson after her speech at the UN; threats of publishing naked pictures and all the other bullshit directed at her. I've seen some men speak up against the campaign but not as many as I would have expected/hoped.

If I see a woman calling all sex rape or some other such bullshit I will call her out on it. But I simply don't have the time to goes to extremist feminist websites and argue with them constantly.

When it comes to gender equality I call myself a feminist. I don't hate men - quite the contrary, in fact.