Some Questions for Believers

[Mudhammam]

My brother recently composed a LONG essay on his Facebook raising many of the same issues against "atheism" that we hear Christians commonly pose here. I'm not going to paste the piece, as it would amount to a wall of text nobody would want to see (much less be able to make it through without losing their eyeballs in the back of their head), but many of the questions I issued in response are largely applicable to the disagreements we often confront here, and if any believer would like to consider some of them and respond, I would appreciate the further insights.

1. Why do you feel that Christians are the most stigmatized group in the world?
a. If I may ask in good faith, do you think it may have anything to do with their veneration for texts that declare such sentiments as the following? “Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:15) “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” (Mark 9:42)
b. What has been the role of political Christianity, beginning in the fourth-century with the State church and its continuation throughout Christendom to the present day?
2. Aside from the question of whether or not there is evidence for supranatural beings, to what extent do you believe family and culture will effect how a person develops their views about theology?
a. Do you agree that it's far more likely that a person born in Pakistan will form opinions within a framework of Islam while a person born in suburban America will yield to some variation of the Christian faith?
b. To pose the question a slightly different way: do you believe that most people come to religious faith on philosophical or scientific grounds rather than as a consequence of “historical accident”?
3. Do you believe more people struggle against opposing emotional desires or “wishes” in converting to the Christian religion (or any other) or in rejecting the respective faith of their family and/or culture?
4. Do you believe that those who profess belief in an afterlife are less likely to “misbehave” or act “immoral” due to fear of Judgment Day?
a. What evidence is there to bear this out?
5. Recent polling data reveals the majority of Americans to believe in the literal existence of the devil (57%), Noah's flood (60%), the parting of the Red Sea by Moses (64%), theistic evolution (59%), and that Jesus rose from the dead (64%). (Moreover, polling in 2010 revealed that roughly 90% of the U.S. Congress profess Christian belief in one form or another.) In consideration of the aforementioned statistics, can any alleged tension between the sciences and religious groups be seriously dismissed as a “largely imaginary war”?
a. To what degree do you fault Christian churches for failing to educate their congregations on the value of methodological naturalism and thinking about questions from a scientific point of view?
7. What is the definition of “atheist fundamentalism”? Do you rather mean to suggest anti-theism? (On an additional note of clarification, do you differentiate between “atheism”and “naturalism”?)
a. Do disagree with Hitchens when he declares, “Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it”?
8. Do you believe that Jesus' message was primarily one of gentleness, peace, and love of mankind?
a. In Beyond Good and Evil, Nietzsche writes, “Not their love of men but the impotence of their love of men keeps the Christians of today from—burning us.” Translator Walter Kauffman adds in a commentary note that put another way, Nietzsche is essentially saying, “If Christians were really passionately concerned for the salvation of their fellow men in the hereafter, they would still burn those whose heresies lead legions into eternal damnation.” Do you agree or disagree that his observation is not inconsistent with the attitude expressed towards certain people by Jesus' in Mark 9, and that scores have suffered as a result of a literal interpretation of such passages (of which the Bible as a whole is inundated with), INCLUDING other Christians?
9. If you define atheism as a “belief system," do you likewise think a-astrology is a system?
a. Do you not differentiate between anti-religious political ideologies or systems and atheism as a lack of belief in deities?
b. Do you not see the difference in atrocities committed by governments or people who hold an abysmal lack of regard for others and those who are additionally inspired by venerated figures and/or texts?
10. How do you define morality?
a. On what grounds do you deny that two parties form a sufficient basis for evaluating which actions will prove constructive or destructive to their respective being? (In other words, it is often implied that unless a third party—such as a deity—intervenes, humans will be unable to determine what it is they value and how they ought to behave as a result).
b. What is the definition of absolute value? (Some would argue that that is not merely precluded on physicalism, but on the understanding that it's a contradictio in adjecto).

[dimaniac]

b. To pose the question a slightly different way: do you believe that most people come to religious faith on philosophical or scientific grounds rather than as a consequence of “historical accident”?

People become religious because of fear of death.

[Minimalist]

It clearly isn't because of fear of ignorance.

[DramaQueen]

I think that without the belief in the afterlife, we'd have less war

[Mudhammam]

b. To pose the question a slightly different way: do you believe that most people come to religious faith on philosophical or scientific grounds rather than as a consequence of “historical accident”?

People become religious because of fear of death.

That may explain why people believe their good behavior will result in their asses posted up in cloudy skies with harps after death... but it does not even remotely suggest why people believe their loved ones who deny the alleged significance of Jesus' bloody execution and so-called resurrection or the prophecies bestowed on Moses, Mohamet, or Joseph Smith, should preclude them.

[Neo-Scholastic]

1. Why do you feel that Christians are the most stigmatized group in the world? Not even close.

a. If I may ask in good faith, do you think it may have anything to do with their veneration for texts that declare such sentiments as the following? “Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:15) “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” (Mark 9:42) Doubtful, because so few people have any biblical literacy these days. If there is any stigma attached to Christianity, it would have more to do with its doctrinal commonalities with political conservatism and recent sex-abuse scandals.

b. What has been the role of political Christianity, beginning in the fourth-century with the State church and its continuation throughout Christendom to the present day? I’ll take a pass on this one.

2. Aside from the question of whether or not there is evidence for supernatural beings, to what extent do you believe family and culture will effect how a person develops their views about theology? Quite a bit. People tend to adopt the religion of their native majority culture.

a. Do you agree that it's far more likely that a person born in Pakistan will form opinions within a framework of Islam while a person born in suburban America will yield to some variation of the Christian faith? Yes, I agree.

b. To pose the question a slightly different way: do you believe that most people come to religious faith on philosophical or scientific grounds rather than as a consequence of “historical accident”? No. I don’t think most people think about it that much one way or the other.

3. Do you believe more people struggle against opposing emotional desires or “wishes” in converting to the Christian religion (or any other) or in rejecting the respective faith of their family and/or culture? Not sure I understand the question. I do believe that sin can be either a barrier to or motivation for moving towards the Lord. Some people will realize that something is amiss and seek help. Others will dismiss their worse nature as excusable or even positively.

4. Do you believe that those who profess belief in an afterlife are less likely to “misbehave” or act “immoral” due to fear of Judgment Day? Fear is a poor motivator, so no. Good behavior flows out of a good heart that loves the Lord and their neighbor as themselves.

a. What evidence is there to bear this out? Anyone can see from their own experience that one can know what one should do and still not do it. Having the will to be good must precede knowledge of how to do so.
5. Recent polling data reveals the majority of Americans to believe in the literal existence of the devil (57%), Noah's flood (60%), the parting of the Red Sea by Moses (64%), theistic evolution (59%), and that Jesus rose from the dead (64%). (Moreover, polling in 2010 revealed that roughly 90% of the U.S. Congress profess Christian belief in one form or another.) In consideration of the aforementioned statistics, can any alleged tension between the sciences and religious groups be seriously dismissed as a “largely imaginary war”? Not sure what exactly they are polling. The devil as the personification of evil vs. a singular evil angel? A worldwide flood vs. a local event? The parting of the sea as a natural event coinciding with the exodus? Theistic evolution? I don’t think it is unscientific to look at the odds and conclude that the dice might have been loaded. And one can still be scientific about how the natural world works while still providing space for the rare miracle here and there, like an actual resurrection.

a. To what degree do you fault Christian churches for failing to educate their congregations on the value of methodological naturalism and thinking about questions from a scientific point of view? I think churches should teach the Word.

7. What is the definition of “atheist fundamentalism”? Do you rather mean to suggest anti-theism? (On an additional note of clarification, do you differentiate between “atheism”and “naturalism”?) I give up on arguing about definitions.

a. Do disagree with Hitchens when he declares, “Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it”? Yes, I disagree because Hitchens fails to identify the source of human decency. Conscience comes from the Lord as part of his provision.

8. Do you believe that Jesus' message was primarily one of gentleness, peace, and love of mankind? Or as I would say to love the Lord and your neighbor as yourself.

a. In Beyond Good and Evil, Nietzsche writes, … Nietzche sees everything in terms of the will to power and projects that onto the Christians of his day.

9. If you define atheism as a “belief system," do you likewise think a-astrology is a system? Astrology is a system and not a particularly good one. Atheism is…whatever.

a. Do you not differentiate between anti-religious political ideologies or systems and atheism as a lack of belief in deities? Those types of bigots are a subset of atheists.

b. Do you not see the difference in atrocities committed by governments or people who hold an abysmal lack of regard for others and those who are additionally inspired by venerated figures and/or texts? Not really, no.

10. How do you define morality? Love of the Lord and loving the neighbor as self.

a. On what grounds do you deny that two parties form a sufficient basis for evaluating which actions will prove constructive or destructive to their respective being? (In other words, it is often implied that unless a third party—such as a deity—intervenes, humans will be unable to determine what it is they value and how they ought to behave as a result). Not sure what you’re asking. Value relates specifically to what is good and desirable and not merely what is apparently good and desirable. Individual belief about what is valuable does not decide what is actually of value.

b. What is the definition of absolute value? (Some would argue that that is not merely precluded on physicalism, but on the understanding that it's a contradictio in adjecto). That which is to be desired above all other things and that from which all other things derive their value.

[Drich]

1. Why do you feel that Christians are the most stigmatized group in the world?

Because Christ told us we would be.. In short all other religions are of the world and the world does not disown them outright. However if the world could Kill Christ then why would it spare His followers?

a. If I may ask in good faith, do you think it may have anything to do with their veneration for texts that declare such sentiments as the following? “Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:15) “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” (Mark 9:42)

No. There are similar texts in mormonism and Islam and you didn't bother to post them did you?

b. What has been the role of political Christianity, beginning in the fourth-century with the State church and its continuation throughout Christendom to the present day?

Wicked men sought to use the excuse of serving God to come to their own ends.

2. Aside from the question of whether or not there is evidence for supranatural beings, to what extent do you believe family and culture will effect how a person develops their views about theology?

little to none in this soceity.
This soceity shuns family in favor of what your friends/peer group think.

a. Do you agree that it's far more likely that a person born in Pakistan will form opinions within a framework of Islam while a person born in suburban America will yield to some variation of the Christian faith?

Yes. Because the oppsite is true there. It is a family based soceity.

b. To pose the question a slightly different way: do you believe that most people come to religious faith on philosophical or scientific grounds rather than as a consequence of “historical accident”?

It depends on the soceity. That is the true variable. Why? Because people at their core are lemmings, looking to follow what the guy in front of them is doing.
In both cases I out lined this behaivor by saying in the mid east the crowd follows the family so the crowd is largly influenced by what the beliefs are in the family. and in the west the people are more influenced by peer association so will be influenced more by family.

3. Do you believe more people struggle against opposing emotional desires or “wishes” in converting to the Christian religion (or any other) or in rejecting the respective faith of their family and/or culture?

You can take Christianity out of the mix all together on this one. It is about going against the grain more that it is siding with God. that said. It is always harder to go against the grain when it is a matter of family, than for friends... but again that is subjective based on how you view family verse peers/friends.

4. Do you believe that those who profess belief in an afterlife are less likely to “misbehave” or act “immoral” due to fear of Judgment Day?

No. We are who we are and even at our best deserve Hell.. Christianity/Biblical Christianity is not about behaivor modification.

a. What evidence is there to bear this out?

The bible. Hence Biblical Christianity

5. Recent polling data reveals the majority of Americans to believe in the literal existence of the devil (57%), Noah's flood (60%), the parting of the Red Sea by Moses (64%), theistic evolution (59%), and that Jesus rose from the dead (64%). (Moreover, polling in 2010 revealed that roughly 90% of the U.S. Congress profess Christian belief in one form or another.) In consideration of the aforementioned statistics, can any alleged tension between the sciences and religious groups be seriously dismissed as a “largely imaginary war”?

The only conflict between the God of the bible and 'science' is the idea that in order for God to be God He must remain unexplained.
'Science' In truth is how God does what He does.

a. To what degree do you fault Christian churches for failing to educate their congregations on the value of methodological naturalism and thinking about questions from a scientific point of view?

Complete failure.

7. What is the definition of “atheist fundamentalism”? Do you rather mean to suggest anti-theism? (On an additional note of clarification, do you differentiate between “atheism”and “naturalism”?)

Atheist= Does not believe in God.
Fundie=strict adherence to the basic principles of any subject or discipline.

a. Do disagree with Hitchens when he declares, “Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it”?

Yes. "Human decency" is an ever devolving concept that changes from generation to generation and from one culture to another.

8. Do you believe that Jesus' message was primarily one of gentleness, peace, and love of mankind?

One of them. (The second one.)

a. In Beyond Good and Evil, Nietzsche writes, “Not their love of men but the impotence of their love of men keeps the Christians of today from—burning us.” Translator Walter Kauffman adds in a commentary note that put another way, Nietzsche is essentially saying, “If Christians were really passionately concerned for the salvation of their fellow men in the hereafter, they would still burn those whose heresies lead legions into eternal damnation.” Do you agree or disagree that his observation is not inconsistent with the attitude expressed towards certain people by Jesus' in Mark 9, and that scores have suffered as a result of a literal interpretation of such passages (of which the Bible as a whole is inundated with), INCLUDING other Christians?

I am assuming we are talking about the tail end of mark 9 where we are told to cut an offending member (of the body) off and throw it into the fire.
I'm good with that and i do not see the conflict the appreantly niche saw in his version of christianity.

9. If you define atheism as a “belief system," do you likewise think a-astrology is a system?

Belief=: a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
System: a regularly interacting or interdependent group of items forming a unified whole <a number system>: as
You all have a mandated view of God. A similar view of orgins, hold up the same teachers and philosphers as being the pioneers of your beliefs.. So.. Yeah you belong to a system of belief. Not one of you could believe in creation or God and still be an atheist could you? You have rules therefore you belong to a system of belief.

a. Do you not differentiate between anti-religious political ideologies or systems and atheism as a lack of belief in deities?
b. Do you not see the difference in atrocities committed by governments or people who hold an abysmal lack of regard for others and those who are additionally inspired by venerated figures and/or texts?

:Jerkoff:

10. How do you define morality?

The whim of popular culture in a given soceity in a given time span.

a. On what grounds do you deny that two parties form a sufficient basis for evaluating which actions will prove constructive or destructive to their respective being? (In other words, it is often implied that unless a third party—such as a deity—intervenes, humans will be unable to determine what it is they value and how they ought to behave as a result).

None as reflected by my defination.

b. What is the definition of absolute value? (Some would argue that that is not merely precluded on physicalism, but on the understanding that it's a contradictio in adjecto).

general pompassory and self adulation does not deserve the time it takes to answer..

[Mudhammam]

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I enjoy reading the different perspectives. Drich, I'm not sure I understand your answers on these two though:

a. Do you not differentiate between anti-religious political ideologies or systems and atheism as a lack of belief in deities?
b. Do you not see the difference in atrocities committed by governments or people who hold an abysmal lack of regard for others and those who are additionally inspired by venerated figures and/or texts?

:Jerkoff:

b. What is the definition of absolute value? (Some would argue that that is not merely precluded on physicalism, but on the understanding that it's a contradictio in adjecto).

general pompassory and self adulation does not deserve the time it takes to answer..

[The Valkyrie]

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I enjoy reading the different perspectives. Drich, I'm not sure I understand your answers on these two though:

:Jerkoff:

general pompassory and self adulation does not deserve the time it takes to answer..

1. He's jerking off at the thought of genocide?
2. He's too full of himself (see answer 1., above) to answer the question?

[Drich]

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I enjoy reading the different perspectives. Drich, I'm not sure I understand your answers on these two though:

:Jerkoff:

general pompassory and self adulation does not deserve the time it takes to answer..

Did you get everything else?

---

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I enjoy reading the different perspectives. Drich, I'm not sure I understand your answers on these two though:

1. He's jerking off at the thought of genocide?
2. He's too full of himself (see answer 1., above) to answer the question?

.... Or 'He's jerking off' to the thought of blaming religion for genocide.

It's real simple. If a religion commands genocide then genocide can be attributed to said religion. If not then it does not, then no matter what people claim To do in the name of a deity, it has nothing to do with said deity.