Posts: 13122
Threads: 130
Joined: October 18, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:12 pm
(November 19, 2014 at 7:10 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Careful with the word "nothing", guys. The way theists use it isn't really well defined. The big bang theory isn't a creation ex nihilo proposition, so if "nothing" means "non existence" then the answer would be we don't know, as there is no possible way to examine or measure non existence by definition.
Absolutely this.
Posts: 3520
Threads: 31
Joined: December 14, 2013
Reputation:
20
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:43 pm
(This post was last modified: November 19, 2014 at 7:44 pm by Lek.)
(November 19, 2014 at 7:12 pm)abaris Wrote: (November 19, 2014 at 7:10 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Careful with the word "nothing", guys. The way theists use it isn't really well defined. The big bang theory isn't a creation ex nihilo proposition, so if "nothing" means "non existence" then the answer would be we don't know, as there is no possible way to examine or measure non existence by definition.
Absolutely this.
The reason I'm asking is that according to scientific "fact" matter had to always exist and will always exist. It's really hard to fathom something that always was and always will be. Since matter always existed, it couldn't have come from nothing (the total absence of anything), but obviously some of you hold that one or the other of these assumptions is true.
Posts: 8731
Threads: 425
Joined: October 7, 2014
Reputation:
37
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:44 pm
(November 19, 2014 at 7:10 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Careful with the word "nothing", guys. The way theists use it isn't really well defined. The big bang theory isn't a creation ex nihilo proposition, so if "nothing" means "non existence" then the answer would be we don't know, as there is no possible way to examine or measure non existence by definition.
The really big misconception with big bang and theists something blew up then working universe. That's not even how it happened it took billions of years for the basic elements to start forming things.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
Code: <iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/255506953&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true"></iframe>
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:46 pm
Yes, so be careful with the words you're using to describe it or you'll further their confusion and make discussion more difficult.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 13122
Threads: 130
Joined: October 18, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:46 pm
(November 19, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Lek Wrote: The reason I'm asking is that according to scientific "fact" matter had to always exist and will always exist. It's really hard to fathom something that always was and always will be. Since matter always existed, it couldn't have come from nothing (the total absence of anything), but obviously some of you hold that one or another of these assumptions is true.
We don't know what happened before the Big Bang. At least, most of us claim to don't know.
Science didn't find the answer yet and everything that is said is pure speculation.
Posts: 19789
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:49 pm
(November 19, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Lek Wrote: (November 19, 2014 at 7:12 pm)abaris Wrote: Absolutely this.
The reason I'm asking is that according to scientific "fact" matter had to always exist and will always exist. It's really hard to fathom something that always was and always will be. Since matter always existed, it couldn't have come from nothing (the total absence of anything), but obviously some of you hold that one or the other of these assumptions is true.
Yet you don't find it hard to fathom that some entity, possessed of seeminly childishly anthropamorphic traits, as well as an elastic suite of attribute always ready to be stretched to fit the ad hoc argumentative and wishthinking needs of the least educated and least scientifically literate of our societies, "always was and always will be", to say nothing of also being omnipotent but yet so unable to avoid torturous excersises to get to what you say he wants to get to.
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:49 pm
(This post was last modified: November 19, 2014 at 7:50 pm by FatAndFaithless.)
(November 19, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Lek Wrote: (November 19, 2014 at 7:12 pm)abaris Wrote: Absolutely this.
The reason I'm asking is that according to scientific "fact" matter had to always exist and will always exist. It's really hard to fathom something that always was and always will be. Since matter always existed, it couldn't have come from nothing (the total absence of anything), but obviously some of you hold that one or the other of these assumptions is true.
No, see this is exactly why I said we have to be careful with the definitions of the words we use, because they have different meanings in different spheres. Much like the scientific definition of 'theory' versus the colloquial one, the word 'nothing' suffers a similar divergence.
No, science does not claim the universe as we know it came into existence from nonexistence. I also don't know where you're getting this 'matter has always existed' thing either, as our understanding of time only extends as far back as the Planck time after the initiation of the Big Bang.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 8731
Threads: 425
Joined: October 7, 2014
Reputation:
37
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 7:59 pm
(November 19, 2014 at 7:46 pm)abaris Wrote: (November 19, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Lek Wrote: The reason I'm asking is that according to scientific "fact" matter had to always exist and will always exist. It's really hard to fathom something that always was and always will be. Since matter always existed, it couldn't have come from nothing (the total absence of anything), but obviously some of you hold that one or another of these assumptions is true.
We don't know what happened before the Big Bang. At least, most of us claim to don't know.
Science didn't find the answer yet and everything that is said is pure speculation.
we really wont know but as far as we do know now is that nothing even time and space didn't exist yet.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
Code: <iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/255506953&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true"></iframe>
Posts: 13122
Threads: 130
Joined: October 18, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 8:01 pm
(November 19, 2014 at 7:59 pm)dyresand Wrote: we really wont know but as far as we do know now is that nothing even time and space didn't exist yet.
Of course.
Posts: 8731
Threads: 425
Joined: October 7, 2014
Reputation:
37
RE: Atheism is unreasonable
November 19, 2014 at 8:04 pm
(November 19, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Lek Wrote: (November 19, 2014 at 7:12 pm)abaris Wrote: Absolutely this.
The reason I'm asking is that according to scientific "fact" matter had to always exist and will always exist. It's really hard to fathom something that always was and always will be. Since matter always existed, it couldn't have come from nothing (the total absence of anything), but obviously some of you hold that one or the other of these assumptions is true.
Matter didn't always exist. you take a event like the big bang time and space expanded into nothing. from their you have the basic element helium. Helium cannot form bonds when hot so millions of years later it started bonds with other helium creating oxygen millions of years later stars start to form. basically that's it in a nut shell.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
Code: <iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/255506953&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true"></iframe>
|