Ban

[Godhead]

Ace -

History is taught in schools. In school, people also (although not often) learn about cultures. In both cases, this may often involve learning about things like what a historical figure did and why, and how people in different cultures behave and why. And in both cases, this may often involve learning about points of view which may or may not be rational, or logical, but people are still told about them. Educating people about the real world involves teaching them what's going on in it. In the real world, there is a huge variety of beliefs. So from an educational point of view, religion is a very useful subject to be aware of, and even more so since it is so popular. So in that sense, teaching people about religion is just like teaching them about history and culture. All three are about the world, and viewpoints. If you feel strongly against people being told about religion then how is that any different to history and culture? The only difference is if it was done in a preachy way. But firstly, it needn't be done like that, and secondly, even if it was, it wouldn't be the end of the world anyway because as we agree, religion is a great deconverter, as well as a converter. I think it's fine to teach about religion, why not have it taught by atheists too? How's that for a spin on the subject. Would that make it fairer for you? It would certainly be educational as kids would not only learn about religion (at lest for informational purposes, general awareness), but they'd also learn about different opinions on religion.

[Autumnlicious]

Ban minarets, for the same reason we ban public urination, loud obnoxious noise, and going out in public in your underwear swinging a headless chicken spraying blood everywhere.

No, really.

I don't care if your religion tells you to do something - the minute it infringes on MY rights to not be bothered routinely by loud noises without compensation or reason other than because magic sky daddy said so.

[Godhead]

Synackaon -

I think that's a bit silly as many things make noise.




Moving on, what about smoking bans? My view is this : All smoking bans should be lifted.

[Autumnlicious]

No, they shouldn't until the vast majority of people develop the responsibility to recognize where and where they should not smoke without the need for a law to tell them what is illegal.

Smoking bans, for example, in hospitals are an excellent example. Pure oxygen is routed through the walls, patients are sick, etc,.

[Tiberius]

Should we not protect children from these rather unsecular ideas.

It's not an "unsecular" idea though. Secularism is about the separation of church and state. As far as I am aware, that covers both religion interfering in government, and government interfering with religion. What religions decide to teach their children is up to religion, not to government.

On a personal level, I'm far more inclined to let parents raise their children the way they want, as long as they don't break the child's civil rights. In a secular society, Christians would bring up their children as Christians, Muslims would bring up their children as Muslims, and atheists would probably leave the whole "religion" thing out of it. Far too many people these days try to pollute secularism by thinking it is somehow anti-religious or "atheistic". It's not.

As for minarets, I'm find with people putting them on buildings, and certainly during the day I don't see why they can't have a call to prayer, as long as it doesn't start annoying residents by being too loud or going on for too long. We have church bells in my country, but I don't complain when I hear them. As a matter of fact, I quite like the sound of church bells, and the songs that are sung out of minarets can be nice too. I don't have to be a member of the religion to enjoy certain parts of it.

Finally, onto smoking bans. There shouldn't be any enforced by government; they should be the responsibility of whoever is running the establishment. Hospitals don't need laws written by government when they can simply put up signs and enforce the rules themselves; same with anyone who owns a pub.

[Ace Otana]

@ Godhead

Firstly history and religion are two very differant things. Religion is personal belief, history is about the past. I'm not against people/kids being educated about religion. I'm against religion being in schools with very young kids that are very gulible. I'm not against religious education, Im against it being in certain schools. Teach kids religion...if they want it and not when they are very young and gulible. They should be given the option to choose not to be taught.
Thankfully I could and did avoid R.E lessons in my high school.

Students should have the option to have nothing to do with religion at all.
You can have some religious education but not too much and not directed at the very young. Also students can choose to not be taught if they wish. Religion is nothing but belief, much like santa claus. Just a belief. Holds no importants.
Religion should never pressure anyone of any age.

[Autumnlicious]

As for minarets, I'm find with people putting them on buildings, and certainly during the day I don't see why they can't have a call to prayer, as long as it doesn't start annoying residents by being too loud or going on for too long. We have church bells in my country, but I don't complain when I hear them. As a matter of fact, I quite like the sound of church bells, and the songs that are sung out of minarets can be nice too. I don't have to be a member of the religion to enjoy certain parts of it.

Clearly you've never had several Muslims on campus holler gibberish right in your ear (I was tabling for my secular club and they have a tendency to "pass" innocuously by). Occasional noise I am fine with. It is the routine loud noise for no reason that annoys me.

Finally, onto smoking bans. There shouldn't be any enforced by government; they should be the responsibility of whoever is running the establishment. Hospitals don't need laws written by government when they can simply put up signs and enforce the rules themselves; same with anyone who owns a pub.

Government is merely an organization, originally, propped up by us to enforce common beliefs and customs. I prefer a government to mandate all hospitals have no smoking zones than letting each hospital (and thus each administrator) come up with something. Standards are nice.

[Godhead]

Ace -

Religion and history or culture have differences between them, yes. However, they also have something in common, something which is relevant and significant. The similarity is that they all pertain to what is going on in the world. As such, it's worth teaching. By the way I'm not sure what your issue is. Is your issue about people having religion forced on them? If so, that's easily solved : Tell kids about it without forcing them to believe any of it, teach it within such a context as "cultural studies". It's fair enough to teach culture, is it not? It's perfectly possible to teach about culture without even remotely encouraging people to join a culture, isn't it? You can tell people about historical figures without telling them they should be like them, right? Why is religion any different? It's not, religion is effectively a culture, and it can be taught as such, without anybody forcing anyone into anything. Perhaps it's just a case of you wanting that which you disagree with to never be taught at all. Regardless of that, religion is a fact of life, just like history and culture. It's a legitimate subject.

[Ace Otana]

@ Godhead

I said already! I'm not against the education of religion. In fact teaching about the crusader wars, inquisition, stonings and the drowning of women should be taught. It's historical. Just not on the very young and gulible. Also kids/students should have the option to not be involved in lessons on the subject of religion. What part of that didn't get into your head?
I was once very young and gulible and I remember. The school did more than try to educate me on religion, it tried to convince me of god's existance. They failed but it's because of this experiance I stand strongly against religion when it comes to the young and gulible. I'm not saying religion shouldn't be taught, just not on the very young. Religion can all too easily push it too far. Also kids/students should be able to opt out of such things as they wish. The education of religion should be optional not compulsory and not at all in the schools for the very young.

When I was taught that everything was created in 7 days, I thought "WTF!". Till one of my class mates came out and said "but I thought god was all-powerful? Why would it take him 7 days?". The teacher's reaction was quite funny. He just moved on and changed subject.

[Godhead]

Ace -

I covered that : Religion needn't be taught in a preachy way. It can be taught as information about what some people believe, just like with history, and with culture. As such, it's fine to teach it to young kids because it's not done in a preachy way, merely as information about what some people believe. That's very reasonable, just as it is with history and culture, and if you disagree then it must be because you have a fear that teaching kids about religion merely as information about what some people believe will lead to those kids deciding, of their own accord, without being forced, that they wish to pursue a religion. That's basically what it boils down to, you simply fear that there will be more people who believe in something which you don't believe in, whilst ignoring the obvious fact that anything can be easily taught in a non preachy way.