Nihilistic Murderer

[CapnAwesome]

I agree that most things don't matter in the big picture, but then- the big picture doesn't matter much. Most things only matter in the little picture, and that's the one we all live in. That's the picture the victims' families and his mother are living in; he as well, I suppose.

I'm always most disturbed by their human side. I want nothing in common with them and that's never the case. I will say I've seen more disturbing people, what struck you the most by this particular case? That he shared similar views?

Yeah, I guess that he seemed so familiar to me is what's most disturbing. Also the way he talks about murdering someone is the same way that he talks about making a cheese sandwich. Incidentally the same way that he talked about his own execution. Most other murderers at least fear their own death if nothing else. This guy was just so flat about everything. I also fear that his worldview is essentially the correct one.

[Losty]

I can't see the video (slow interwebs), why do you think his worldview is correct?

[CapnAwesome]

At the end of the day I feel that he is right, that it doesn't really matter that he killed two people. Probably the most disturbing evaulation of my own beliefs that I've ever had to come to terms with.

The loved ones of those people would disagree that it doesn't matter. Don't get caught up in the theistic delusion that a finite existence leads to our actions being meaningless. Just because our actions have no effect on how the universe will be in a million years doesn't mean that they don't have very real, measurable effects on the here and now, and we can judge those actions by the negative and positive effects they have on the people around us.

I don't think that's a theistic delusion? Not really sure that there are many, if any, theistic nihilists out there. Theists tend to think that our actions matter overmuch, as in what we do will have eternal effects out our immortal souls. Obviously I don't share any of that. In fact I think atheists who aren't nihilists are being dishonest with themselves on some level.

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I can't see the video (slow interwebs), why do you think his worldview is correct?

Well basically he doesn't believe that it matters that he killed two people because eventually we'll all be dead anyway (the way he terms it is biomass, eventually we'll all be biomass) I think that it's true. He also took that exact same view with his own execution. It doesn't really matter. I found that blase view he had of his own life to be as chilling as his murders really. Although I'm obviously not a sociopath and like you I couldn't imagine any circumstances where I could kill someone, I can't really fault his logic.

People can say 'well it matters to the families' but we as a species will only be here for a blink of an eye. Whatever meaning someone imposes on their life is pretty much a delusion that they are using to keep themselves from being a nihilist.

[AFTT47]

The guy at about 35:00 described it perfectly: The rational part of his brain that would kick in and prevent you from killing someone in a moment of anger is missing in him. His brain has faulty wiring. We all get angry but with him, there isn't anything to rein it in. There is a feedback loop that is missing.

[CapnAwesome]

What strikes me more about this guy than his obvious absence of any real motif to kill, is how normal his life had been up to that point.

Yeah, I guess maybe that's it. I mean what sort of 40 year old who seems so sane and normal just decides suddenly to kill a couple of random people for no real reason? It makes you feel very unsafe.

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The guy at about 35:00 described it perfectly: The rational part of his brain that would kick in and prevent you from killing someone in a moment of anger is missing in him. His brain has faulty wiring. We all get angry but with him, there isn't anything to rein it in. There is a feedback loop that is missing.

I'm not really sure that that is it though. I mean as far as we know that's the first time he killed someone, if that were really the case I think you'd see a long history of violent crime from him, instead he has a minor history of drug smuggling. I have a different theory that I was discussing with my girlfriend as we watched this (she tends towards being a nihilist herself) which is the feeling of flatness. I think that this guy probably feels flat or even bored most of the time. That's probably why he had to ride motorcycles dangerously, travel full time and live an exciting life. Eventually that wasn't doing it for him anymore and the only real way to feel alive was to start killing people.

[Faith No More]

Neither atheism or theism per se entail existential nihilism. Ontological naturalism, physical reduction, and materialism are a different story, since all three sever the relationship between signs and those things they signify. Purely physical event just are, they are not omens nor do they have affect. They have no significance except what gets assigned to them arbitrarily based on someone’s whim. And within that absurdist position, the whim of a pious humanitarian has no more justification than the whim of a mass murder.

The significance assigned is not arbitrary. Through my intellectual capacity and sentient awareness, I assign value to myself. I recognize that which I value in myself within others, so I value them as well. Based on that value I place on them, I conclude that causing them harm is negative(bad) and pleasing them is positive(good), and our ethics can be derived by trying to maximize the pleasure as whole based on each individual having equal value. Philosophically it has more justification than a mass murderer, because the logical conclusion of the philosophy that other people are meaningless objects that can be disposed of is that you yourself become equally disposable. Unless you are willing to devalue yourself, it's an unsustainable philosophy.

And why exactly do those effects matter at all within a materialistic paradigm? How does someone go about assigning value to different kinds of electro-chemical reactions?

One word: sentience.

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I don't think that's a theistic delusion? Not really sure that there are many, if any, theistic nihilists out there. Theists tend to think that our actions matter overmuch, as in what we do will have eternal effects out our immortal souls. Obviously I don't share any of that. In fact I think atheists who aren't nihilists are being dishonest with themselves on some level.

I labeled it theistic because they often like to tout the idea that if we are going to die eventually with no afterlife, this life is meaningless.

I have a hard time defining myself as a nihilist, because it seems to mean different things to different people. I do recognize that ultimately none of what we do will matter. The cosmos will fizzle out and our existence will a tine footnote in existence that no one will ever read. I draw the line, however, when someone says that because of that inevitable path our actions in the present time and space don't matter. Whether or not that makes me a nihilist, I don't know.

[Nope]

What strikes me more about this guy than his obvious absence of any real motif to kill, is how normal his life had been up to that point.

Yeah, I guess maybe that's it. I mean what sort of 40 year old who seems so sane and normal just decides suddenly to kill a couple of random people for no real reason? It makes you feel very unsafe.

I am about to watch the link because these type of things fascinate me but I think that my background makes it easier for me to understand someone like this killer. A psychologist once told me that my mother was a sociopath. I don't know if mom was one or not but it was miserable being her child. EVERYONE told me that she was a great parent who adored me. She was not. When I tried to reach out for help because her abuse was not physical, no one took me seriously. Outwardly, she seemed so sweet and knew how to get people, especially men, to do what she wanted. She manipulated and lied to every single person in her life. Once she told me that people don't have to believe you but if you plant just a seed in their heads about another person, that seed will eventually grow. Some people are very good at wearing a mask in front of others. They are terrifying people when that masks slips and the real person peeks out.

[CapnAwesome]

The significance assigned is not arbitrary. Through my intellectual capacity and sentient awareness, I assign value to myself. I recognize that which I value in myself within others, so I value them as well. Based on that value I place on them, I conclude that causing them harm is negative(bad) and pleasing them is positive(good), and our ethics can be derived by trying to maximize the pleasure as whole based on each individual having equal value. Philosophically it has more justification than a mass murderer, because the logical conclusion of the philosophy that other people are meaningless objects that can be disposed of is that you yourself become equally disposable. Unless you are willing to devalue yourself, it's an unsustainable philosophy.

I don't mean too much to jump into your guy's conversation, but I'm going to anyway (because ultimately it doesn't really matter, does it?) I think what you are talking about is entirely separate from being a nihilist. You are talking about having a moral code. I think it's entirely possible to have a moral code and to treat people well as a nihilist. Nihilism is just the recognition of the absurd, that it doesn't really matter in the end. So I think that ethics are a seperate issue from whether or not something really matters. Also in address to this:

Unless you are willing to devalue yourself, it's an unsustainable philosophy.

I think you are absolutely right. If you watch the video and when the guy talks about his own execution you can tell that he places exactly the same amount of value on his own life as he does on that of his victims. The value that we place on ourselves is arbitrary and illusionary. Some people value themselves tremendously and don't value other people at all. Some people value themselves not at all and will place extreme value on someone else. Where does this stem from? From nowhere. If the value we assign to ourselves can be so arbitrary it has to just be illusionary.

[Faith No More]

People can say 'well it matters to the families' but we as a species will only be here for a blink of an eye. Whatever meaning someone imposes on their life is pretty much a delusion that they are using to keep themselves from being a nihilist.

If nothing matters, you wouldn't be trying determine if nothing matters.

[CapnAwesome]

I don't think that's a theistic delusion? Not really sure that there are many, if any, theistic nihilists out there. Theists tend to think that our actions matter overmuch, as in what we do will have eternal effects out our immortal souls. Obviously I don't share any of that. In fact I think atheists who aren't nihilists are being dishonest with themselves on some level.

I labeled it theistic because they often like to tout the idea that if we are going to die eventually with no afterlife, this life is meaningless.

I have a hard time defining myself as a nihilist, because it seems to mean different things to different people. I do recognize that ultimately none of what we do will matter. The cosmos will fizzle out and our existence will a tine footnote in existence that no one will ever read. I draw the line, however, when someone says that because of that inevitable path our actions in the present time and space don't matter. Whether or not that makes me a nihilist, I don't know.

Thanks for the clarity. So you are talking about what some theists say about us. It's funny in a weird sort of way because we've managed to a limited extent take back the label Atheist and make it not sound like a slur. This is frustrating to Theists so they try to use Nihilist like it's a slur and accuse all Atheists of being Nihilists. Of course this doesn't really matter (just like everything else.) Now I am a Nihilist so I don't think that it's a slur at all. I also doesn't think that it's an excuse for poor behavior. I will say that my outlook sometimes has led me to do dangerous behavior with the feeling that if I die as a result, it doesn't really matter because eventually I won't exist anyway. This is just an acceptance of conditions and also an acceptance of the lack of value of my own life. I have good morals in general and treat people well because it leads to my life being better. You could say 'why do that, if it doesn't really matter?' Well it doesn't matter, but I have to do something anyway, so I might as well treat people well and not end up in prison and the like. Might as well do something.

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People can say 'well it matters to the families' but we as a species will only be here for a blink of an eye. Whatever meaning someone imposes on their life is pretty much a delusion that they are using to keep themselves from being a nihilist.

If nothing matters, you wouldn't be trying determine if nothing matters.

How so? I mean just because nothing matters doesn't mean that someone is doomed to inaction. I don't see the connection that you are making.