Nihilistic Murderer

[CapnAwesome]

What, do you want me to scan the hard copy of the OED for you? What do you expect to find, online, but an online dictionary?

Dismissing the definition because it is "online" is silly. It's a cheap way to get around the point without answering it.

My moral principles come from my own thinking and empathic sense. I don't go out and kill others because I don't think I'd care for it if someone tried to kill me. Returning the courtesy..... etc etc

First off, forgive me editing job above, I just personally find it easier to have these discussions in paragraph form rather than breaking things down point by point. Feel free to respond however you like (since the way you edit arguments on the internet doesn't really matter, just like everything else.)

Well I think that using a dictionary definition is also a cheap argument tool, so we are 1 for 1 on that. Lets just stick with the definition that I use for myself, since I'm not going to be bothered to conform my beliefs to what a dictionary says. I think most nihilists would agree on the definition 'life and everything else is meaningless' So for arguments sake I'm just going to stick with that since that is what I believe. Although I also think that it probably applies to most Nihilists.

So you say that you don't go out and kill people because of some kind of social contract that you won't be killed. That leads to a second important question: if that social contract wasn't in place, would you kill people? In other words do you want to go out and kill people? Personally I think what prevents me from killing people is that I don't want to do it. It sounds terrible. I think the reason I don't want to do it is the same reason for most human behavior including morality, a combination of nature and nurture.

Also regarding morals. I think that the distinction between having no morals and having meaningless morals is an extremely important one. Being a Nihilist doesn't at all mean that I believe that morals don't exist. To me that would be like saying that I don't believe rationality or love or all kinds of other human states exist. It's clear to me that they exist because I can both observe them and experience them. I just don't think that they matter. Lets just imagine it this way. You are walking on a beach and pick up a shell. Pretty quickly you lose interest and toss the shell back into the sand and forget about it. Does that mean that the shell doesn't exist or that it just doesn't matter? That's how I view morality (and everything else). I firmly believe that morality exists and also obviously I have morals. It just doesn't matter. I choose to behave in a moral way for a variety of reasons, mostly that I like being a moral person and that it improves my life. I think everybody has morals (except for maybe the person in that video, which is why I found it so interesting in the first place.) Even a psychopath like Ted Bundy has a moral code. His moral code just placed all the value on himself and none on other people.

[Faith No More]

I'm a little torn on this thread. Not only am I arguing with two of the people who I like best on the forums, but I don't want to try to convince you guys or anybody else to be a Nihilist. I'm fine and happy being one. In general I'm a pretty happy person because I've learned to accept the absurdity of an atheistic and nihilistic universe. I don't think that everybody can do that though. I think some people are depressed enough considering their eventual non-existence. If you pile on the idea that all the horrible (and good) things that have happened in history are ultimately meaningless, it can become too much for some. I think that's why so many Atheists are not Nihilists, so they can instil meaning in their life to keep themselves sane. I don't instil meaning and keep myself sane just fine because I accept the absurdity and even humor of it all.

Well, personally, I've put a lot of thought into the subject, so one person's opinion isn't going necessarily sway me instantly. I, too, accept the complete absurdity of this existence, I am just unconvinced that I, as a sentient being amidst the chaos, am completely incapable of fighting against that absurdity and developing meaning on a personal level. The things I value stem from the value I have place upon my own existence, and I have yet to see an argument that precludes me from making that value judgement.

[CapnAwesome]

Yeah, I didn't really mean that the word itself is ill-defined, but from what I've seen of how people use the word, there doesn't seem to be an agreed upon definition of just what a nihilist is.


I guess I need to know exactly how you are using the term "nihilist" to really comment further here.

That's fair. I bet there are a fair amount of angsty teenagers running the internet around calling them nihilists and talking about how they have no morals and quoting Friedrich Nietzsche. For the sake of this argument lets just go with "life and everything else doesn't matter.'

[AFTT47]

I am not a nihilist myself in that I don't see life as pointless. Even if I did though, I do not desire to kill people - well, not many at least. Those bastards who come around my apartment with leaf blowers deserve death but that's a special case. Even then, I know there will likely be consequences to face if I kill them and I do value myself. The bottom line is there is no way I start going around killing people. Doing so is not in my best interest. Simple as that.

[Mudhammam]

If a nihilist is someone who thinks life doesn't matter but they go on living anyway, aren't they like the soft and watered down version of a suicide?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well I think that using a dictionary definition is also a cheap argument tool, so we are 1 for 1 on that.

Except that I addressed your point, instead of dodged it.

Lets just stick with the definition that I use for myself, since I'm not going to be bothered to conform my beliefs to what a dictionary says. I think most nihilists would agree on the definition 'life and everything else is meaningless' So for arguments sake I'm just going to stick with that since that is what I believe. Although I also think that it probably applies to most Nihilists.

Demonstrate the meaninglessness of life, then?

So you say that you don't go out and kill people because of some kind of social contract that you won't be killed. That leads to a second important question: if that social contract wasn't in place, would you kill people? In other words do you want to go out and kill people?

No, I did not say that I refrain from killing because of the social contract. I said that the social contract is evidence that morality has meaning. Those are two entirely different things.

Also regarding morals. I think that the distinction between having no morals and having meaningless morals is an extremely important one. Being a Nihilist doesn't at all mean that I believe that morals don't exist. To me that would be like saying that I don't believe rationality or love or all kinds of other human states exist. It's clear to me that they exist because I can both observe them and experience them. I just don't think that they matter.

Except that they color your actions, and the actions of others, who may or may not share your morals.

It just doesn't matter. I choose to behave in a moral way for a variety of reasons, mostly that I like being a moral person and that it improves my life.

So -- you have a better quality of life due to acting in accordance with your morals ... but at the same time, you think they're irrelevant?

I think everybody has morals (except for maybe the person in that video, which is why I found it so interesting in the first place.) Even a psychopath like Ted Bundy has a moral code. His moral code just placed all the value on himself and none on other people.

Well, it seems to me (though I'm no Internet Psychologist) that both Bundy and the guy in the OP are amoral sociopaths. Also, I'm curious -- if you think morals are meaningless, why do you think "everybody has morals"? It seems to me that if morals were meaningless, then we'd see a broader dispersion of amorality than we actually do.

What do morals do in our lives? They shape our actions. They are often called "precepts" for a reason, in the sense that they guide our behavior going into a situation before we know what we're facing. They act as one of the anchors for our individual identities. I think those facts imbue morality with meaning, even though we do all die and turn to wormfood.

[CapnAwesome]

If a nihilist is someone who thinks life doesn't matter but they go on living anyway, aren't they like the soft and watered down version of a suicide?

No I don't think so, I think that's a broad misconception. I don't really find nihilism to be depressing. I just find it to be factual. Actually in many ways I also find it to be empowering.

[Faith No More]

That's fair. I bet there are a fair amount of angsty teenagers running the internet around calling them nihilists and talking about how they have no morals and quoting Friedrich Nietzsche. For the sake of this argument lets just go with "life and everything else doesn't matter.'

The problem with this seems to be how meaning is affected in respect to time. I think it is entirely possible for something that is meaningless in the long term to have short term value. This definition of nihilism doesn't recognize that meaning is contingent upon the time-frame which it exists within.

[CapnAwesome]

All the stuff you said.*

I apologizing for dodging your point then. Also if I don't address every thing because the editing becomes a pain when it comes to the point by point style of replying on a forum. I hope my definition of Nihilism is clear now. But speaking of dodging a point you didn't address whether or not you would ever want to kill someone. I guess I could see how the question would be an uncomfortable one, but for me the lack of wanting to kill someone is just as good or even preferable to having a desire to kill someone and having some moral code that keeps you from doing it. How you said that the fact I agree with the serial killer is scary, I find it far more frightening when people say that their morals are all that prevent them from killing someone. Morals for most people are fairly flexible where as I don't think that nihilists who don't want to kill anyone are really going anywhere.

Obviously I can't demonstrate the meaningless of life. That's like asking to demonstrate that there is no god. I'm arguing for the absence of something: meaning in life. You are arguing that exisits so the burden of proof is definitely on you. Now you might very well have satisfied that burden of proof for yourself, which is fine, but I still believe that life is ultimately meaningless.

So -- you have a better quality of life due to acting in accordance with your morals ... but at the same time, you think they're irrelevant?

Yeah, I mean that's pretty accurate. I don't think my quality of life is really relevant, nor anything else for that matter. I have morals simply because I have them through nature and nurture, not for complicated philosophical reasons. I think most people are probably the same way and just add the philosophical reasons later. That's why nihilists have morals just like everyone else.

I have a statement and then a question for you: I would posit that our sense of morality comes from a combination of nature, the things we have evolved to feel as moral because it helps us survive as a species, and nurture, what we are taught is moral by our society. Thus most nihilists have the same morals as anybody else. I just don't think that those morals matter. Where do you think your morality comes from?

Final thing, I think there is a world of moral difference between Ted Bundy and that guy. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Bundy, but he fought his own death to the very last, wept at as they were dragging him to the electric chair and by all accounts felt very strongly that wrongs could be done to him. He definitely had a sense of right and wrong when it applied to himself. Bad things that happened to him were wrong and everything else was okay. Feldman on the other hand just doesn't seem to care one way or another what happens to him. It all doesn't really matter. Maybe he was the only true nihilist.

*obviously mine.

---

That's fair. I bet there are a fair amount of angsty teenagers running the internet around calling them nihilists and talking about how they have no morals and quoting Friedrich Nietzsche. For the sake of this argument lets just go with "life and everything else doesn't matter.'

The problem with this seems to be how meaning is affected in respect to time. I think it is entirely possible for something that is meaningless in the long term to have short term value. This definition of nihilism doesn't recognize that meaning is contingent upon the time-frame which it exists within.

I guess the perception and importance of time important to nihilism. Would it be fair to say that you are a long term nihilist but believe that in the short term things have value?

I think although I'm very good at living in the moment I just take a long term view of things. Often times when I make a mistake in my life that seems very important at the time my nihilism is extremely helpful to me. This is part of why I think it's an enabling and empowering philosophy rather than a depressing one. If I make a bad mistake, I recognize that eventually I'll be dead anyway, no matter how bad I screw up. At the same time I savor the good moments because I have the freedom to do as I wish. Where as some people say 'might as well go kill people' I say 'might as well behave well and enjoy my time here on earth.' Even though ultimately it don't really matter either.

[Thumpalumpacus]

But speaking of dodging a point you didn't address whether or not you would ever want to kill someone.

I could see wanting to kill someone. I've been in one fight for my life, where I'm certain that my opponent literally wanted to kill me, and though I didn't kill him -- the fight was broken up when the police arrived -- you better believe that had killing him been required of me to survive, I would want to have done it. I had already, in that fight, sensed the possibility, and accepted that as one possible outcome.

I hold that morals are both relative and subjective. As such, I don't believe that all killing is always wrong, forever.

As for demonstrating meaning in life, I do that every day I go to work: for I have set myself to the purpose of helping make the world a better place than I have found it, and I do that by helping to run a nature preserve.

Raising my son has been my purpose for a long time, but he's grown into a fine young man and most of the heavy lifting is done. But he, too, allows me to define the meaning of my own life, insofar as I live in order to help him be a better man.

My morality obviously comes from my own peculiar combination of nature and nurture.

As for Bundy, I don't think being amoral precludes one from being fearful.