You CAN game Christian morality

[The Grand Nudger]

Unlikely, he's been at it for a much longer time. Lots of practice.

[orangebox21]

Given your position, it is a logical and necessary conclusion, not a loaded question. A loaded question is one in which either answer would be put you in a position of guilt. You could answer: no, we shouldn't love the part of ourselves that does wrong. Although you've recognized that to answer in this way undermines your accusation against Christianity. So answer the question.

Uh, no. A loaded question is one which has an unwarranted presupposition. It doesn't necessarily have to be guilt-inducing.

You don't know if I do wrong.

We've all done something wrong. You've never driven 1 mph over the speed limit? Never told a lie? Never taken some pens home from work? Never seen someone in need and not helped? Never lusted after a man/woman? Never cursed? Never hated? Never dishonored your parents? Never had a conversation with a coworker on company time? I'm not here make a list of your sins (for all I know I'm a worse sinner than you), but to claim you've never done anything wrong is just dishonest.

Your claim is that we should love ourselves and not self-loath. When our self does wrong, should we love our self? This question is begged from your initial statement and is a question you are going to have to answer, if not to me to yourself. Because the end result of this logic is that we should celebrate and encourage everything everyone does.

That is a true statement. But as the saying goes, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because my rationale is corrupted by sin doesn't mean I hate my rationale. I hate what my sin nature does to my rationale, and I recognize that rather than use my rationale for God's glory, I use(d) it for ungodliness. After all, God created man in His image, and He created him good. There's nothing inherently wrong with these attributes.

According to your argument, there's nothing inherently wrong with your nature as well. After all, God created man with a nature that wasn't tainted by sin.

There was nothing wrong with Adam's nature at the time of creation (he wasn't created with a sin nature).

One the murder thing i never mentioned murder did I.

That's true you didn't. You said that Christianity is wrong to make people feel bad for doing things that they love and things that make them feel good. That begs the question. If a murderer loves killing people and it makes him/her feel good, is it wrong to make them feel bad about killing. According to your moral criteria, you've answered that yes, it is wrong to make them feel bad.

In your world view you would say if someone thought of harming someone its like they did it.
That is not a fair system because there is a big difference between thought and action.

Is it moral behavior to sit around and fantasize about killing people?

I think that maybe, OB..you should speak to your own "sin nature" and not the rest of humanity's. You don't even know a fraction of humanity, might it be more than a little bit ridiculous for you to make statements such as that about -every last one of us-? How much time do you spend telling your neighbors about their "sin nature"? Your friends, your parents.....your siblings, your children? You'll have to forgive me on this (or not)...but......this is one of those things that people say that I doubt get thought through very well - and it's often said so casually that it's easy to forget how horrid, insulting, and baseless such an accusation...even to a person you know intimately, actually is. It's a disgusting comment, particularly in the context you're using it (as a wave of the hand apologetic)....and I think you need to find your shame.

hrugs:

Are you passing moral judgment on me? After lecturing me about not passing judgment on others?

The gospel is by nature offensive.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

[GrandizerII]

Uh, no. A loaded question is one which has an unwarranted presupposition. It doesn't necessarily have to be guilt-inducing.

You don't know if I do wrong.

We've all done something wrong. You've never driven 1 mph over the speed limit? Never told a lie? Never taken some pens home from work? Never seen someone in need and not helped? Never lusted after a man/woman? Never cursed? Never hated? Never dishonored your parents? Never had a conversation with a coworker on company time? I'm not here make a list of your sins (for all I know I'm a worse sinner than you), but to claim you've never done anything wrong is just dishonest.

I didn't say I've never done wrong, only that you can't know that I do wrong.

There are people who, for all we know, have never done wrong in their lives (according to the Christian idea of wrong).

Your claim is that we should love ourselves and not self-loath. When our self does wrong, should we love our self? This question is begged from your initial statement and is a question you are going to have to answer, if not to me to yourself. Because the end result of this logic is that we should celebrate and encourage everything everyone does.

I think you should still love your self even when you stumble in life and go against God's will. It's not like you're supposed to be that perfect guy who mustn't fail at all in life.

There was nothing wrong with Adam's nature at the time of creation (he wasn't created with a sin nature).

But now human nature has been tainted with sin. The same with will, intellect, abilities, and so on (as you said). So why loathe just the nature but not the others?