In reply to something you wrote a while back, Statler:
So how is this at all fair? It's like raising a child to be bad, then punishing him for it. Except for eternity.
It's a pretty bizarre way of doing things, not to mention arrogant. Couldn't he just have had breakdancing angels or something if he wanted to impress?
And their intentions were evil because of their fallen nature, for which God is either directly or indirectly responsible. So the punishment is not just.
So if God's purpose were, say, to cause pain to babies, would that be evil?
(October 18, 2010 at 4:31 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: God's common grace can effect non-believers just as easily as it can believers. It's his saving grace that only effects believers.
We see this when God hardens Pharoah's heart, he hardens his heart but still punishes him for it. I think he can do this because of the way he hardened it. The only reason Pharoah was not completely evil was because he was being "held up" by God's common grace. So in order to harden his heart, all God had to do was remove some of that common grace and Pharoah's heart became harder because he made decisions based on his fallen nature.
So how is this at all fair? It's like raising a child to be bad, then punishing him for it. Except for eternity.
Quote:This also gets into the different will's of God. When God has Moses tell Pharoah that God wants him to let His people go, this is one of God's wills. However, God also hardens Pharoah's heart so that he does not let His people go. This is God's other will. God essentially delays Pharoah's response so He could bring more glory to Himself which is God's purpose.
It's a pretty bizarre way of doing things, not to mention arrogant. Couldn't he just have had breakdancing angels or something if he wanted to impress?
Quote:We see this in the death of Christ too. Three different groups of people were responsible for Christ's death, the Pharisees, Pilot, and the Romans. All three groups were doing what they wanted to do, and for different reasons. Yet, all three groups were accomplishing was God had ordained to happen, and yet all three groups will be punished for their actions and justly so. They will be punished because their intentions behind the actions were evil. This is the reformed viewpoint (a cliff notes version) of this issue, you would get different answers from different groups of Chrstians. However I feel this is the most consistant and satisfying position.
And their intentions were evil because of their fallen nature, for which God is either directly or indirectly responsible. So the punishment is not just.
Quote:A little post-script though. As long as God is accomplishing his purpose he is not doing evil, so none of this can be used to call God evil. In Genesis Joseph gives us another look at how man can do something with evil intentions and yet God can ordain the same event for good. Joseph tells his brothers (after they sold him into slavery), "You meant it for evil, God meant it for good".
So if God's purpose were, say, to cause pain to babies, would that be evil?
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
