Miracle

[Harris]

You're asking for references that the Quran is not divinely inspired from people who do not believe it was divinely inspired.

Are you some sort of lunatic or something? Is this how you usually approach a conversation?

Let me break it down for you. You posit something (eg. The Quran is the word of Allah), i say "provide evidence that corroborates your story" and you say "certainly, here you are".

What does NOT constitute evidence is blatant and demonstrable post hoc reasoning which is very obviously you shoehorning your knowledge of the universe which comes from the 21st century into a text written in the 7th century which cannot possibly contain such knowledge unless you can provide definitive evidence which suggests that to be the case. Thus far, you haven't.

So you want evidence that the Quran is not divinely inspired? Ok, the evidence is your very shoddy and poorly reasoned argument as to why it is, coupled with the complete and utter lack of evidence to support the claims you are making.

Perhaps, I am the only person who is giving authentic historical and scientific references along with my arguments and justifications. You guys are rejecting Quran based on mere speculations. Only saying Quran is a comic book is not adequate.

Except, Sirius is actually two stars. Allah apparently didn't know this. Sirius is so bright because the system contains more than one star. Yet the verse you quoted clearly claims Sirius is only one star! That Iyaht would have been the perfect opportunity for Allah to say that Sirius is actually two stars.

But the Iyaht manages to be scientifically inaccurate! Well done for 'shooting yourself in the foot'. Is it painful? You even linked to the Wikipedia page yourself in your own post.
Here is an image of Sirius by the Chandra X-ray Observatory.
More information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius#System

Any System has its unique identity. System’s Name cannot be used in plural to indicate distinct elements of which it is made. Before the discovery of Sirius System, Sirius was an identity of a single star and after the discovery Sirius is still a valid identity of Sirius System. In both cases, Sirius is in singular form.

The singular form used in this verse for Sirius is perfectly valid for Sirius System. Moreover, do not undermine the verse:

“And was at a distance of but TWO BOW-LENGTHS or (even) nearer;”
An-Najm (53)
-Verse 9-

http://earthsky.org/space/how-astronomer...uble-stars

This chapter of the star also would have also been a perfect opportunity for Allah to tell us how astronauts as supposed to do Salat and fast. Since Sirius is two stars, if you lived in the Sirius system, which star would be used to determined prayer times and Ramadan fasts? Would you have to pray ten times a day? And how would you find the Qibla in the Sirius system?

In regard to Embryology here is a good video:
PZ Myers (an embryologist) argues embryology with Islamists
We see the two bumbling buffoons Hamza Tzortis and Adnan Rashid demonstrate how little they know about science and history. So funny! P. Z. Myers demonstrates that the author of the Quran used incorrect Greek science!

1. If P. Z. Myers think that Greeks had the knowledge on different stages of foetus development and someone has copied that information in Quran then P. Z. Myers should give an authentic record on the foundation of which he is accusing Quran for coping thing. Up until today, he failed to provide a record that can be taken as evidence. In the absence of such evidence, Myers is in place of a liar.

2. Please have a look at the following article which compared how Indians and Greeks were perceiving embryological stages and how Quran defined those embryological stages.

http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/med...mbryology/

How do you know which verses mean something foreign and which don't?

Simply quote the verses with the phrase “SENT DOWN” and I will show you how I know the meaning of those verses.

The only difficulty I have with replying to you sometimes is that I don't know which thing to correct first.

If you do not know which thing to correct first that means you do not have idea which thing is incorrect.

It seems to me that in order to reach the conclusion of a miracle you have certain boxes that need ticking then according to you something is a miracle, but with total lack of thought about the topic you're talking about.

Have you ever given any historical reference along with your arguments? Having that deficiency, do you think you have better understanding on the topic?

The quran doesn't mention skin as a pain receptor, neither do any other ancient documents.  The two words "Pain" and "Receptor" were never used in conjunction with each other in ancient time to describe what we now know as being a pain receptor.

Why is Quran mentioning, “Roasted through?”
Why is Quran mentioning that replacement of skin is necessary for them to feel penalty?

This verse says:

“as often as their SKINS are ROASTED THROUGH, We shall change them for FRESH SKINS, that they may TASTE THE PENALTY”.

Is not that detail enough to give a clear understand?

Read this very very carefully.  This sentence implies that ancient people believed the heart was responsible for pain RATHER than the brain. The brain is the central organ responsible for sensation of pain being unpleasant and something to avoid.

This doesn't exclude the burning of skin being what would initially cause the pain.  There doesn't need to be any ancient documents to provide proof that ancient people knew burning their skin would cause them pain, the same way you don't need ancient documents to prove they would know being punched in the balls would hurt, it's just plain simple logic they would know about what they have experienced.

It is a FALSE LOGIC.

The quran doesn't exclude the heart being a central organ responsible for the sensation of pain, it doesn't say the heart doesn't sense that the skin is burned, it doesn't say the brain does sense the skin is burned, it simply says the skin is burned and it will cause pain.

If the heart WAS responsible for the sensation of pain the quran verse would still be totally 100% correct wouldn't it?

Not at all. Man’s words always are influenced by the popular concepts. However, Quran does not reflect any popular idea of its time rather by giving skin a preference over the heart it had challenged all popular concepts concerning pain caused by burning skin.

The only information given by the quran is a primitive threat of punishment void of ANY scientific knowledge whatsoever.  It says the skin is burned and causes pain, so the pain could be sensed by the heart, it could be sensed by the big toe, it could be sensed by a donkey, who knows?  

You are trying to dramatize a common sense idea. Not heart, not big toe, and not donkey feel the pain of burning other than the person who is going through that burning experience.

“The Muslims are like a single person. IF HIS EYE IS IN PAIN, HIS WHOLE BODY IS IN PAIN, AND IF HIS HEAD IS IN PAIN, HIS WHOLE BODY IS IN PAIN."

Hadith 6589
Chapter 17
Book 45 (Nurturing Ties and Manners)
Sahih Muslim
Volume 6
Translated by:
Nasiruddin al-Khattab

The quran gives no information about what is sensing the pain, just that having your skin burned hurts and that is all.

Fire causes nasty pain is an enough warning for a rational person so he/she could take proper measures for keeping himself/herself away from hell fire in any/all circumstances.

Stop avoiding the question and answer it, would ancient people have experienced the symptoms of 3rd degree burns or not?

Perhaps you are the one who is ignoring and rejecting the truth. Does it matter for anyone to have 3rd degree burn or 10th degree burn if he has no idea of DEGREES?

I don't like to make blanket statements about the entire population of the world in ancient times but it is most likely that the majority of people back then did not have the understanding of stars that I do, although I can't say for certain that there weren't some people who did have a correct theory on what stars actually were.

That means you think that in ancient time there were people who had the information about stars similar to what general people have in today’s world even though ancient did not have the telescopes and advanced techniques of calculations.

I don't actually know that much about stars, I'm sure I could find out more about them than any ancient person knew if I searched google but I don't apply the knowledge of stars much in my day to day activities so I've never retained much knowledge about stars in my lifetime.

Did I request you give me something?  I don't remember that.  But I answered your question anyway unlike you when I ask you a question.

Your previous response is BEGGING THE QUESTION.

The scientific facts AS WE KNOW THEM are not trivial.

Ancient people had not even the least idea about today’s scientific facts. Saying they did know something about contemporary scientific facts is a self-deception. All modern scientific discoveries were made possible because of cutting-edge scientific tools, which were not present even in the dreams of ancient people.

The shitty explanations given in the Quran about mud turning to semen turning to blood clots is not only trivial. . . it can be observed in autopsy, stillbirths, etc. It's also factually imprecise.

Is there any living being on earth, which is not a product of clay i.e. soil and water?

Do not hasten to answer. Better, you ponder over this question rather than giving a reckless response.

I didn't say there was any misrepresentation. I'm saying you are reading into the Quran modern knowledge which the actual words in that text do not demonstrate those writers to have had. What they DID have was eyes and language-- and their observations are consistent with that.

I ask you to go out in the night along with your eye and language skills and look at the sky. Then come back and tell me using your language skills that your eyes has clearly seen how UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING.

Morals like jihad? Like torture? Like subjugating women? I'll pass.

Do not you know people in the west are fond of Jihad, Torture, and subjugating women? Otherwise, why they are accepting Islam as their religion?

I never said they had knowledge about specific scientific facts. I said they had eyes. They could see, for example, that where a river runs into the ocean, there seems to be a line which divides the two bodies (specifially, by their differences in color). I've been to the ocean, and this is a simple and common sight. You apparently have not been to such a place, or know anyone who has, or you wouldn't think it was a miracle.

Although you or anyone else cannot bring even one historical record that may give perfect sense that ancient people had idea about halocline yet for the sake of argument I agree that perhaps someone had observed this phenomenon somewhere in the Arabian Desert (perhaps in some Oasis) and wrote about it in Quran.

But what about Darkness in Depth of a deep Ocean, Big Bang, Expanding Universe, etc. Were ancient people able to observe these phenomena with their bare eyes?

Stop calling clay and blood clots "scientific information." It doesn't require science. . . just simple observation. The things you keep calling miracles are a mix of observations and conjecture. . . some of which seems to be basically correct, and some of which (as in the case of foetus development) is a little off. This is consistent with smart and educated guys at a time in which scientific tools were too primivite to make more precise observations.

http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/med...mbryology/

None of it. It's a combination of observation and conjecture, and you haven't demonstrated in any capacity the source of those observations and conjectures. All you done is make a question-begging assumption: that the people of the time were too primitive to know anything, so if they knew anything, it must have come from God. My position is that the ideas first of all don't really demonstrate any deep knowledge of the subjects you are talking about, and secondly that what they DID know is consistent with their powers of observation at the time.

What do you think, which OBSERVATION the ancient people are trying to convey in this verse?

“Were they to see a piece of the sky falling (on them), they would (only) say: "Clouds gathered in heaps!"”
Ath-Thuur (52)
-Verse 44-

My position: they wrote what they knew.

You mean to say they knew how universe is expanding or how Dark Ocean is in its depths.

Your position: they couldn't know anything, therefore God.

My position is far simpler and more supportable than yours, and no amount of word salad, special pleading or unfounded assumptions on your part will change that.

You have yet to create your position by proving how Ancient people learned about Expanding Universe without having the luxury of telescopes and modern scientific techniques.