Miracle

[bennyboy]

Except the things you quoted are references to observation, and to poor interpretations of them. . . there's no evidence that they are references to real science, or that God was requried in order for those interpretations to be made.

What is science at its root? Is not it simple observations at the first stage? Scientist reach to a complex idea only based upon primitive observations. Scientific achievements are not possible without having simple and foundational observations.

However, the phenomenon, which are mentioned in Quran, are not discernible through simple unaided observations. For example, celestial bodies moving on fixed round paths, heavens and earth were one unit of creation before God clove them asunder, Expanding universe, Solar apex, Deep ocean currents, Human embryo and its stages of development, etc.

Exactly ALL of those things are observable, except for the fairy tale about God cleaving things asunder.

To say that clay turns into semen isn't science. At best, it shows an awareness that the body is sustained with materials from the Earth-- another easily-observable phenomenon.

Yes, clay goes through different chemical processes and turn into semen and other organic forms.

Deepity. As I said, we all know, literally every culture, that food comes from the ground and that we grow from it. This is not a miraculous discovery or revelation.

No, but they can all be INTERPRETED and spun to represent scientific fact if one is as willing to do so as you are.

I am quoting verses of Quran whose literal meanings are ample for giving satisfactory understanding without any additional interpretations.

You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. The "science" of the Quran is so hopefully lacking in detail or background that it cannot be said to represent any especial knowledge.

"I don't know therefore Allah" is not a logical improvement.

The problem with you (atheist) is that you are looking at God’s reflections in everything around you and within your own being yet you categorically prefer the ABSURD ideas such as “NOTHINGNESS” and “CHANCE” to the existence of God. This preference is the result of your desires to have free sex (without any difference between relatives and sexes), free use of alcohol, gambling, and to have maximum fun and pleasure by any moral or immoral means.

You (atheist) are acting as a person who looks at a Watch and say, “there is no human designer and this watch popped out of Nothingness as a matter of Accident and Chance.”

First of all, I'm not an atheist. I just find your particular argument about your fairy tale book unconvincing. There's clearly nothing miraculous about it.

As for hedonism, stfu. I'm married, work, and live a respectable life. I drink maybe one or two beers a month. I could as easily categorize YOU as a pissed-off virgin Arab who hopes that holding on to a holy book will land him a reward of 72 virgins. By the way, though, if you've ever been with ONE virgin, 72 of them wouldn't seem like such a prize.

Dude, seriously. Buy a couple bus tickets, go to the sea at the mouth of a river, and tell me what you see.

Unfortunately, in 7th century Arabian Desert, there were no buses. People had camels, horses, donkeys or they travelled on their own two feet. All those means of transport were not good enough for taking someone to some seashore quickly through a huge and almost hostile desert where travelling alone was virtually equivalent to a suicide.

I didn't say they had buses. I said YOU could easily go to the sea and instantly establish that halocline is observable. If you think Arabs never saw the ocean, or never talked to people who had, then you're ignorant. Why do you insist on insulting the intelligence and capabilities of the founder of your religion? I find it ironic that in your attempt to prove your fairy tale, you are much more disrespectful to Muhammed and the other early muslims than I am.

Do you know that thousands of years before Muhammed was born, the Romans and Greeks had established links with Europe, Africa and Asia, and collected libraries full of information about the world? Do you know that people had the ability to travel? Do you know that Muhammed had language, and therefore had plenty of access to all kinds of knowledge outside the Arabian Desert?

Before eighth century, Arabs were illiterate and had no idea about the knowledge, which Greeks, Romans, and Persians had that time. Only in ninth century Arabs had started translating literature from other languages including Greek, Roman, and Persian into Arabic Language.

I didn't say they were literate. I said they had language, and communicated with those around them. Do you really believe that the Arabs had no exposure to Western culture? Maybe you should study history, not only the Quran, because you are showing serious ignorance of fact.

Before and during lifetime of Prophet Mohammad, there are no signs in the history of Arabia that some Greek, Roman, or Persian scholar came to illiterate Arabs and gave them proper education or those Arabs had gone out somewhere for the purpose of having education.

I didn't say they had "proper education." I said they had access to people from outside cultures who could report simple facts-- like the effect of a river running into an ocean.

It's their way of saying that everything was made by God. This is not a surprising position for monotheists to take. It's also hopelessly imprecise and lacking any detail that could confirm that it represents a knowledge of the Big Bang or anything else that is scientific.

Indeed, God is the creator of everything and this belief is truly a position of any monotheist. Quran has given scientific facts only as references to expose its divine nature because the main objective of Quran is to deliver LAW and WARNING to the people. You know that references normally do not contain details. However, today, even a marginally educated person can easily give a short scientific term as interpretation to verse 21:30, which is about the creation of universe out of single object of creation. That term is BIG BANG. People had no idea about Big Bang in the period when Quran revealed.

As a marginally educated person, I guess you would know.

Hmmm. . . maybe because millions of texts were burned in Alexandria and other places? Maybe because it's so obvious to anyone familiar with oceans that nobody bothered to make a point of it?

Maybe, maybe, maybe in Rome or Greece someone knew about the absolute darkness in the depth of an ocean, which is extremely unlikely as well as it is also highly improbable that among illiterate Bedouins of 7th century Arabian Desert, there lived any Deep-Water Diver.

This seems to be the essence of your entire argument: "Early Arabs were do-nothing, know-nothing, thoughtless morons. Therefore anything good that came from them must be a miracle." That is a weak argument, as well as insulting to Muhammed and the others. Go to your mosque and tell your imam that you think Muhammed was an uneducated moron. See what happens.

A lack of evidence that people knew about the obvious and easily-observable isn't really good support for the miraculous nature of the Quran. It is much better support for the nature of Time.

Ancient people had no means to observe Fixed Round Paths on which celestial bodies are moving and they were not able to observe Solar Apex, Big Bang, Expanding Universe, stages of embryonic growth etc. Without having modern scientific tools, even you are not able to observe these known phenomenon. These concepts were not even in dreams of those poor ancient guys.

Again, you appeal primarily to ignorance. You do not in fact know what they knew or didn't know, or who they did or didn't communicate with. Nor have you established that most of the scriptures you have quoted even talk about what you insist they talk about.