RE: How it was forged.
September 28, 2015 at 4:46 am
(This post was last modified: September 28, 2015 at 4:53 am by ReptilianPeon.)
I think if we met somewhere other than Atheist Forums we'd probably be friends. I remember there was this nice poem about an Englishman who met a German in a pub during World War One, I think it was, and he knew that if he met him on the battlefield they would certainly not be friends. Not that I consider this forum a battlefield. As we're here, I will try my best to present an argument.
In regard to those Hadirh about Chess: I don't know why, but they randomly came into my head. Yes, I was incorrect. I checked, and ther are a few Hadith, and you're correct that it was not Muhammad.
I really don't like Hadith precisely because it is a minefield, as you so eloquently put it yourself. If I start quoting Hadith someone doesn't think are authentic then I'm wasting my time. It's always best to stick to Quran in my opinion.
Quran: You have Tafsir for Iyaht, some Iyaht being related to certain Hadith, some people like to check what the Sahabah said and might also have to consider the time period the Tasfir was written in, and be mindful of the translation too. I don't like post science in the Quran narrative Qurans because I think they are biased and translated by Saudi stooges.
Moses story:
So Allah tests people by allowing many to die? I'm not sure I like how dismissive you are of mass killing. Like how when those hundreds of people died in Mecca this month (from the crane collapse and stampede)?
But let's examine this test narrative more closely:
Why test the followers of Moses in this way but not the followers of others? Isn't it interesting that all of the stories in the Quran are confined to this tiny section of the Earth? Why didn't Allah test the followers of Confucius or Buddha?
Every test is unique, which I don't think is fair. Don't you think that if life was really a test then there would be a standard set of circumstances? Teachers don't give their students different exams depending on how much they want a particular student to suffer. Every student in a class does the same test and they are judged against a standard set of criteria. So I reiterate: Life is not a fair test.
Quran 20:86
Fine; let's not dwell on that. But what I will say is that nothing happens except that which Allah wills; that's why people say insha'Allah all the time. So everything that happened was because of Allah.
Allah didn't have to create Satan in the first place. Satan knows that it will eventually lose. So why bother to fight Allah at all? Why defy Allah when you know it's impossible to win?
In regard to slavery:
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. A deity that allows slavery to take place must not value free will. If my free will was taken away by a kidnapper Allah would do nothing because apparently the free will of criminal(s) is more important than the free will of the victims.
Is Allah putting me in the position of helping to test a person if I were to take away their free will in some way? What if I don't want to? You're saying Allah allowed Satan to control Pharaoh and took away their free will. Of course, the Quran says that humans were created weak so we can't be expected to fight against Satan (even though we are).
What I was hoping for is a condemnation of slavery, and I think your answer is sufficient. At least you're argument is somewhat better than Christians don't want to condemn slavery. They just dismiss it as “Old Testament”, as if that's an argument.
The Quran might not tell people to keep slaves (something I'd dispute), but does it expressly tell them not to keep slaves? In some verses, the Quran worded in such a way like it knows people around Muhammad take/have slaves. Quran 33:55 mentions slaves, as does Quran 33:50.
Try telling telling the Arab slave traders of old that the Quran tells them to free slaves. Quickly, you'll find that Quran interpretation is often driven by one's desires. Did you know that people used the Bible to both attack and support slavery? Some people asserted (and probably still do) the Bible allows slaves and that's how the American Civil War started.
But in regard to your comments about wealth: No, we're not all slaves. But I think we need to define what a slave is. I think you're confusing slavery with oppression. True, many slaves are oppressed – but simply because someone is oppressed doesn't mean they are slave. When I think of slaves I think of the Arab or Atlantic slave trades.
If people have the will they can change things. We saw it in Cuba, for example. Cuba was dominated by imperialism for much of its history and then they had their revolution. And now Cubans live free from the rich elites that would like to dominate poor countries. In fact, things are so good in Cuba now that Cubans can expect to live just as long as Americans. Personally, I would much rather live in Cuba than under the Sharia.
I'm not saying living where I am now is bad. However I do realize that exploitation of poor people helps to maintain the standard of living in my country. This saddens me and I hope it changes. I do my best avoid retailers that exploit poor people.
In regard to those Hadirh about Chess: I don't know why, but they randomly came into my head. Yes, I was incorrect. I checked, and ther are a few Hadith, and you're correct that it was not Muhammad.
I really don't like Hadith precisely because it is a minefield, as you so eloquently put it yourself. If I start quoting Hadith someone doesn't think are authentic then I'm wasting my time. It's always best to stick to Quran in my opinion.
Quran: You have Tafsir for Iyaht, some Iyaht being related to certain Hadith, some people like to check what the Sahabah said and might also have to consider the time period the Tasfir was written in, and be mindful of the translation too. I don't like post science in the Quran narrative Qurans because I think they are biased and translated by Saudi stooges.
Moses story:
So Allah tests people by allowing many to die? I'm not sure I like how dismissive you are of mass killing. Like how when those hundreds of people died in Mecca this month (from the crane collapse and stampede)?
But let's examine this test narrative more closely:
Why test the followers of Moses in this way but not the followers of others? Isn't it interesting that all of the stories in the Quran are confined to this tiny section of the Earth? Why didn't Allah test the followers of Confucius or Buddha?
Every test is unique, which I don't think is fair. Don't you think that if life was really a test then there would be a standard set of circumstances? Teachers don't give their students different exams depending on how much they want a particular student to suffer. Every student in a class does the same test and they are judged against a standard set of criteria. So I reiterate: Life is not a fair test.
Quran 20:86
Fine; let's not dwell on that. But what I will say is that nothing happens except that which Allah wills; that's why people say insha'Allah all the time. So everything that happened was because of Allah.
Allah didn't have to create Satan in the first place. Satan knows that it will eventually lose. So why bother to fight Allah at all? Why defy Allah when you know it's impossible to win?
In regard to slavery:
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. A deity that allows slavery to take place must not value free will. If my free will was taken away by a kidnapper Allah would do nothing because apparently the free will of criminal(s) is more important than the free will of the victims.
Is Allah putting me in the position of helping to test a person if I were to take away their free will in some way? What if I don't want to? You're saying Allah allowed Satan to control Pharaoh and took away their free will. Of course, the Quran says that humans were created weak so we can't be expected to fight against Satan (even though we are).
What I was hoping for is a condemnation of slavery, and I think your answer is sufficient. At least you're argument is somewhat better than Christians don't want to condemn slavery. They just dismiss it as “Old Testament”, as if that's an argument.
The Quran might not tell people to keep slaves (something I'd dispute), but does it expressly tell them not to keep slaves? In some verses, the Quran worded in such a way like it knows people around Muhammad take/have slaves. Quran 33:55 mentions slaves, as does Quran 33:50.
Try telling telling the Arab slave traders of old that the Quran tells them to free slaves. Quickly, you'll find that Quran interpretation is often driven by one's desires. Did you know that people used the Bible to both attack and support slavery? Some people asserted (and probably still do) the Bible allows slaves and that's how the American Civil War started.
But in regard to your comments about wealth: No, we're not all slaves. But I think we need to define what a slave is. I think you're confusing slavery with oppression. True, many slaves are oppressed – but simply because someone is oppressed doesn't mean they are slave. When I think of slaves I think of the Arab or Atlantic slave trades.
If people have the will they can change things. We saw it in Cuba, for example. Cuba was dominated by imperialism for much of its history and then they had their revolution. And now Cubans live free from the rich elites that would like to dominate poor countries. In fact, things are so good in Cuba now that Cubans can expect to live just as long as Americans. Personally, I would much rather live in Cuba than under the Sharia.
I'm not saying living where I am now is bad. However I do realize that exploitation of poor people helps to maintain the standard of living in my country. This saddens me and I hope it changes. I do my best avoid retailers that exploit poor people.
