Quote:What about the writings of Cornelius Tactitus? He was neither a Jew nor a Christian. Also, lets not forget Pliny the Younger, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion, Thallus, and Suetonius
Tacitus was a second century writer and his work shows clear evidence of tampering. No ancient writer, xtian or otherwise, quotes his comment about Nero and the xtians. A fair sampling of the Tacitus reference appears in Sulpicius Severus' Chronica, a 5th century work in which he does not cite Tacitus as his source. The only existing manuscript of Tacitus was recently subjected to ultraviolet light and shows that the original word was "Chrestianos" ( followers of Chrestus) not "Christianos" (followers of Christ.) This actually brings Tacitus into line with Suetonius...see below.
Pliny the Younger speaks of Xtians - not "Jesus." Moreover, Pliny tells a tale which would frighten the living piss out of xtians. He notes:
Quote:Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.
So much for the "heroic martyr" myth!
Lucian was a mid second century playwright and dates from a time when xtians became numerous enough to be noticed by the establishment. Lucian makes fun of them. You left out Celsus who blasted xtians without the humor but he was also late 2d century.
I'm glad you mentioned Mara bar Serapion because it is as clear a instance of xtian desperation to find their godboy in the books as anything.
Here is the reference:
Quote:Or the Jews by the death of their wise king because from that same time their kingdom was taken away?
No mention of Jesus...or Christ...or anything. What you may not know....or choose to forget in any case... is that when Marcus Antonius finally got Herod to the throne of Judaea in 37 BC he did so by evicting the Parthians who were supporting the Hasmonean king Antigonus II Mattathias. Antigonius was the last Hasmonean king and certainly many Jews regarded Herod as little more than a Roman puppet. At any rate, whether it be by Antony's order or Herod's, Antigonius was killed to solidify Herod's throne. We don't need any "jesus" in here who, btw, wasn't the "king" of anything.
Thallus: As D-P notes, Thallus' works are not extant. We know of him only through that superb xtian liar, Eusebius and anything he says needs to be taken cum grano salis....to lapse into Latin.
Suetonius: A junior officer on the staff of Pliny the Younger while he was governor of Asia Minor he would also have known Tacitus who was a friend of Pliny's. Suetonius, in Life of Claudius writes of one "Chrestus" ( a common Greek name meaning "Good") causing trouble in Rome during the reign of Claudius which was, unfortunately for you, a few years too late for your godboy. Nonetheless, that simple fact never stops xtians from claiming that Chrestus was Christus! Desperation again. There is another reference in Life of Nero in which Suetonius does mention xtians as being members of a new superstition which were punished along with drunken charioteers and crooked innkeepers. No mention of the Great Fire which presumably he might have heard about from his friend Tacitus. But alas....no mention.
You know, when you trot this stuff out around here you are not dealing with a Chautauqua tent full of Baptists who are going to fall down on the ground shouting "praise jesus" at your every word because they desperately want their fairy tales to be true also. Here, you had better be in position to back up what you say, sport.
