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Free Will
#25
RE: Free Will
(October 12, 2015 at 5:40 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: This accords well with the ordinary definition of "free" quoted in the opening post.  It requires no metaphysical nonsense.

But the metaphysical nonsense is the interesting part of free will!  We want to know whether we really are determined in our choices, like a puppet on a string, and whether we are truly free, with no strings dictating our actions.

Aristotle Wrote:   But with regard to the things that are done from fear of greater evils or for some noble object (e.g. if a tyrant were to order one to do something base, having one's parents and children in his power, and if one did the action they were to be saved, but otherwise would be put to death), it may be debated whether such actions are involuntary or voluntary. Something of the sort happens also with regard to the throwing of goods overboard in a storm; for in the abstract no one throws goods away voluntarily, but on condition of its securing the safety of himself and his crew any sensible man does so. Such actions, then, are mixed, but are more like voluntary actions; for they are worthy of choice at the time when they are done, and the end of an action is relative to the occasion. Both the terms, then, 'voluntary' and 'involuntary', must be used with reference to the moment of action. Now the man acts voluntarily; for the principle that moves the instrumental parts of the body in such actions is in him, and the things of which the moving principle is in a man himself are in his power to do or not to do. Such actions, therefore, are voluntary, but in the abstract perhaps involuntary; for no one would choose any such act in itself.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicoma...3.iii.html

Aristotle gives the example of throwing goods overboard to save one's ship if one gets caught in a storm.  In that case, there are strong incentives to ditch the cargo.  One does not truly have an opportunity to preserve the cargo.  But what of in lesser circumstances?  Let's suppose the ship is at sea in calm weather.  The captain can choose to continue sailing to his destination port, where he can sell his cargo, or turn around and return home, where there is no market for his goods.  If he were to return home, he would face the same loss as the captain in a storm in that the value of the cargo would be lost.  He does not have the opportunity to preserve the value of the cargo and return home.  Is his choice not then also in a mixed state, being partially voluntary and involuntary?  Do the opportunities open to him not determine what it is that he wills, if he is of sound mind and body, and aware of his choices?  Let's take the hypothetical another step further and suppose the ship is moored at harbor in the home port, having just been filled with cargo.  The captain may choose to sail or not.  If he chooses not to sail, he loses the value of the cargo just the same as in the previous case.  He isn't free to take the opportunity to remain in port if he values the profit from the sale of his cargo.  His choice is once again both voluntary and involuntary in a sense.  Now let's suppose, instead, that I am a ship captain, yet have no billet of goods.  I can choose to load up with cargo for sale in a foreign port, or choose not to do so.  Again, the same cost to me is that I will not benefit from the sale of the cargo.  If I value the profit from the sale of cargo, I do not have a free opportunity to remain in port with my ship empty.  And so it goes, each decision we make prior to the sale of goods in that foreign port determines whether we will ultimately profit from the sale of our cargo.  At no point in the chain of events is our will not a mixture of voluntary and involuntary parts.  We do not voluntarily choose the conditions under which we will profit, nor determine which opportunities are closed to us.  It is in this sense that we worry whether or not our actions are in any sense truly voluntary.  And the answer to that question is of great interest to us.

I think, if I have some liberty here, we could speak of free choices in which we have the opportunity to preserve what is of value to us through multiple courses of action. But as in the dialog MTL pasted, there will always be one opportunity that has less cost than the others. Being of sound mind and body, and apprised of the cost of the different choices, we have no opportunity to choose that but which to our mind is the most profitable. Thus, none of our choices are voluntary. They are all involuntary in that the opportunities which present themselves will fully determine which choice we make.
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Messages In This Thread
Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 12, 2015 at 3:12 pm
RE: Free Will - by Darkstar - October 12, 2015 at 3:31 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 12, 2015 at 4:08 pm
RE: Free Will - by Darkstar - October 12, 2015 at 5:04 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 12, 2015 at 5:54 pm
RE: Free Will - by TheRocketSurgeon - October 12, 2015 at 4:11 pm
RE: Free Will - by Kingpin - October 12, 2015 at 3:54 pm
RE: Free Will - by Grandizer - October 12, 2015 at 4:06 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 12, 2015 at 4:26 pm
RE: Free Will - by Faith No More - October 12, 2015 at 4:42 pm
RE: Free Will - by Kingpin - October 12, 2015 at 4:54 pm
RE: Free Will - by Faith No More - October 12, 2015 at 5:04 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 12, 2015 at 5:40 pm
RE: Free Will - by Angrboda - October 13, 2015 at 1:55 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 3:24 pm
RE: Free Will - by Angrboda - October 13, 2015 at 3:36 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 3:48 pm
RE: Free Will - by Angrboda - October 13, 2015 at 4:31 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 5:03 pm
RE: Free Will - by Angrboda - October 13, 2015 at 5:09 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 6:11 pm
RE: Free Will - by bennyboy - October 14, 2015 at 6:03 am
RE: Free Will - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 12, 2015 at 6:05 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 10:55 am
RE: Free Will - by vorlon13 - October 12, 2015 at 7:21 pm
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 12, 2015 at 7:40 pm
RE: Free Will - by Kingpin - October 13, 2015 at 8:56 am
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 11:15 am
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 14, 2015 at 1:44 am
RE: Free Will - by Grandizer - October 14, 2015 at 3:20 am
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 14, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 14, 2015 at 12:02 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 14, 2015 at 11:39 am
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 14, 2015 at 10:09 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 14, 2015 at 11:05 pm
RE: Free Will - by Angrboda - October 15, 2015 at 12:05 am
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 15, 2015 at 12:18 pm
RE: Free Will - by The Grand Nudger - October 12, 2015 at 10:31 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 11:33 am
RE: Free Will - by MTL - October 12, 2015 at 11:32 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 11:45 am
RE: Free Will - by The Grand Nudger - October 13, 2015 at 12:59 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 13, 2015 at 2:22 pm
RE: Free Will - by Angrboda - October 13, 2015 at 2:50 pm
RE: Free Will - by The Grand Nudger - October 13, 2015 at 4:11 pm
RE: Free Will - by The Grand Nudger - October 13, 2015 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free Will - by The Grand Nudger - October 13, 2015 at 5:08 pm
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 14, 2015 at 11:45 pm
RE: Free Will - by Grandizer - October 15, 2015 at 12:04 am
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 15, 2015 at 12:00 pm
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 15, 2015 at 1:00 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 15, 2015 at 2:31 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 15, 2015 at 7:07 am
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 15, 2015 at 2:10 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 15, 2015 at 2:21 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 15, 2015 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 15, 2015 at 2:43 pm
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 15, 2015 at 3:49 pm
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 15, 2015 at 5:40 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 15, 2015 at 3:53 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 15, 2015 at 3:53 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 15, 2015 at 5:59 pm
RE: Free Will - by Mudhammam - October 16, 2015 at 2:16 am
RE: Free Will - by Pyrrho - October 16, 2015 at 11:19 am
RE: Free Will - by Angrboda - October 15, 2015 at 6:08 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 15, 2015 at 6:24 pm
RE: Free Will - by Edwardo Piet - October 16, 2015 at 8:11 am



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