Criticizing Islam is racist?

[MTL]

however, my original point was that, when it gets down to brass tacks,
all those moderate, decent, ordinary, everyday theists
must ultimately own that they either condone, or wink at, the evils done in the name of their religion,
as long as they consent to continue to be a part of it.

(Especially if it is a religion that seeks to recruit,
and passes off its dogma as "truth" without being able to prove such).

They can't just squirm out from underneath responsibility for consenting to be part of such a group,
by saying that extremists "misinterpret",
as long as the extremists are able to defend their actions clearly using the holy writ of that particular religion,
because one follower's interpretation should be as legitimate as another's,
if you are going to allow for different "interpretations" at all.

While I agree that all interpretations may well be scholastically equal, that does not, repeat not, mean that moderates are responsible for the actions of extremists.  If you truly believe that, then I think that you are in fact a bigot -- tarring the entire group for the actions of a few.

You know, I really thought I was crystal clear on this, but perhaps I wasn't...I will try again:

Blaming someone for the actions of another is not the same thing
as criticizing someone for tolerating the evils of another
and continuing to align themselves with that entity.

Example: 

I do not blame Bill Cosby's former co-stars for Cosby's alleged sexual assaults.

Of course I don't.

But I am disgusted that they wink at, or dodge the issue.

MTL Wrote:

Or, at the very least,

It is no more unfair for me to ultimately hold moderate theists responsible for choosing to belong to a hateful religion,
when they are otherwise very decent, kind, reasonable individuals,
who, themselves, object to bigotry and hate;

than it is for you to hold me accountable for "bigotry" because I object to the lack of integrity of theists,
when I am otherwise a very decent, kind, and reasonable individual,
who, myself, objects to bigotry and hate.

Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

Objecting to the lack of integrity of many theists is very different from wishing to enact collective punishment of all of them for the actions of a few.

I find your views here repugnant, and after this post I am convinced that your bigotry is not against Muslims, but all believers.

It is still a bigotry, insofar as you wish to blame all for the actions of a few, and take steps to enact collective punishment for individual crimes or misdeeds.

Abaris was absolutely right; you are unable to see the believer apart from the text.

I find your choice of words a bit reckless:

you wish to blame all for the actions of a few, and take steps to enact collective punishment for individual crimes or misdeeds.

" Take steps to enact collective punishment" ??!!!

Wow.  Please quote me where I said anything like that.

Again,
just because I insist that theists not dodge taking responsibility
for their choice to align themselves with an evil religion,
is not the same thing as saying I "blame them for the actions of others";

And AT NO POINT did I make ANY mention of "punishment".

I simply say they shouldn't stick their head in the sand.

If, and only if, they initiate the conversation with me,
will I confront them with that.


As far as my "bigotry" being against all Believers,
I think perhaps you should read back on some of my posts.

I specifically said that I have no issue with someone having faith in God.

My wish is that all Theists could see that it is possible for them to retain their belief in God
without applying dogma to it.

Imagine how different the world would be if tomorrow we woke up and every Theist in the world had realized they could jettison their dogma and be Deists.

Is that realistic?  Of course not.

But you talked about "defanging" religion...that is my approach to de-fanging:
point out, passively, when the opportunity presents itself,
that it is possible to have faith in God, without clapping dogma onto it.


But, like you, I deal with Theists "in the coin tendered".

I do not go around trying to disabuse them of their dogma,
and I can be friends with them if they are decent, rational people.

But if the conversation was ever initiated, on their part,
about our different philosophies,
I would not shrink, if prompted, from illustrating that I don't see how they can continue to align themselves with a religion that goes against their own conscience.

if that ends the friendship, so be it.

Another user on this forum, with whom I am friends, is a vegan.

I am not....but I am seriously considering it.

He would certainly never initiate a debate with me on the issue of my hypocrisy:
how I profess to love animals, but still consume products that are not vegan.

And, truth be told, he doesn't have to.

My conscience already pricks me on the point of my own hypocrisy.

But I have two points, here:

1.  When confronted with my own hypocrisy,
I am, at the very least, not going to dodge responsibility for that;
(and the outcome will doubtless be that I will eventually switch to a vegan lifestyle
if I am going to be able to look at myself in mirror).

2.  I am not going around trying to recruit others
to eat meat and abandon their heathen vegan ways

...and, to boot, telling them this is the only TRUTHFUL way, even though I can't prove any such thing;

...AND insisting that my right to do so be constitutionally-protected;

...AND then abusing my privilege to oppress vegans into adopting a more meat-friendly lifestyle.


I object to Islam and Christianity because it is NOT PASSIVE
and any Theist who tries to convert me
is going to end up being confronted with their hypocrisy.


That is all I mean by being held responsible, Thumpalumpacus.

I am not blaming them for terrorist acts committed by others.

I never said that.

I only said I hold them responsible for winking at it or sticking their head in the sand
(and I am only "holding them responsible" when they open the conversation with me).


I am not saying that they should be stripped of equal opportunities or equal rights.
Of course not.

Nor would I suggest that we should ever, to use YOUR word, "punish" moderate Theists
for the actions of extremists.

But because their religion is not passive, and seeks to recruit,
AND passes their unsubstantiated theories off as "TRUTH" with impunity,
AND enjoy a great deal of privilege as a result of their "religious freedom" being constitutionally protected,
AND abuses that privilege to oppress others (IE: LGBT ...and therefore, bigotry)

THEN, if they want to bang heads with me,
I will not shrink from pointing out their hypocrisy.

And you are trying to say that makes me a bigot.  Pfft.

That's all.

More later...I am a bit busy at the moment.