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Atheist Forums › Community › Religion › Christianity v
The Problem of Good

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The Problem of Good
orangebox21 Offline
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Religious Views: Christian
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#19
RE: The Problem of Good
December 8, 2015 at 4:29 pm
(December 8, 2015 at 8:03 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
(December 7, 2015 at 4:18 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Interestingly, Paul does praise God during the bad actions.

My OP wasn't talking about any one specific Christian, X. It's talking about them in aggregate. This seems to be the behavior and beliefs, most broadly speaking.
No Christian perfectly represents Christ.  You will always be able to find ways in which we are not living in accordance to the truth.  Hopefully you are able to see this as our personal imperfection, not as a valid expression of Christ or Christian living.
(December 8, 2015 at 8:03 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
(December 7, 2015 at 4:18 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: If the good we do is not of ourselves, but rather Christ living within us, then it logically follows that God should get the glory for the good we do.  And if we bear within ourselves a sinful nature, then we bear the blame for the bad we do.  Special pleading is when an exemption is made without adequate justification.  In this case the exemption: God is responsible when we do good, but not responsible when we do bad, is made because in one instance it is me acting, and in the other instance it is God acting.

So, we're only responsible when we do bad, but we can't do good on our own? Then why are we even held accountable? Why doesn't God compel us to do good better than he does. This setup actually puts all of the blame on God, rendering the free will defense moot.
Do you agree that we are personally responsible for our actions?

(December 8, 2015 at 8:03 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
(December 7, 2015 at 4:18 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: I am still curious if you are speaking of libertarian or compatibilist free will.

I am unaware of the difference. I'm responding to apologetics other people use.
We do need to define our terms here to avoid confusion.

Compatibilist free will-  The notion that our choices are compatible with determination.

Libertarian free will-  Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.

From a Christian worldview, determinism is a result of the sovereignty of God, and in a materialistic worldview, determinism is a result of naturalistic processes.

I would like to point out here that our worldviews share the same challenge.  From a libertarian free will perspective, how can God be sovereign?  And in a materialist worldview (which is deterministic in nature), how can libertarian free will even exist?  From a compatibilist perspective, if we are predetermined (by a sovereign God or natural processes) to a certain action, can our free will be held responsible for that action?  And which answer most accurately represents reality?

further compatibilist reading

If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?



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Atheist Forums › Community › Religion › Christianity v
The Problem of Good

Messages In This Thread
The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 7, 2015 at 9:04 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by bennyboy - December 7, 2015 at 9:24 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Lek - December 7, 2015 at 1:38 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2015 at 1:55 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Lek - December 7, 2015 at 2:09 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Whateverist - December 19, 2015 at 1:40 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 19, 2015 at 8:00 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Lemonvariable72 - January 9, 2016 at 6:25 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Cecelia - January 17, 2016 at 9:53 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Lek - January 17, 2016 at 10:53 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 18, 2016 at 12:20 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 18, 2016 at 12:55 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Lek - January 18, 2016 at 2:14 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 18, 2016 at 2:47 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 18, 2016 at 10:00 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Minimalist - December 7, 2015 at 1:46 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Lek - December 7, 2015 at 1:51 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - December 7, 2015 at 1:57 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Lek - December 7, 2015 at 2:15 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 7, 2015 at 2:54 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 7, 2015 at 3:26 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 7, 2015 at 4:18 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 8, 2015 at 8:03 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 8, 2015 at 4:29 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2015 at 5:46 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 9, 2015 at 12:28 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 9, 2015 at 4:48 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 10, 2015 at 11:44 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 10, 2015 at 4:01 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 17, 2015 at 5:19 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 17, 2015 at 10:33 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 19, 2015 at 12:02 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - December 19, 2015 at 1:28 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 21, 2015 at 9:14 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 21, 2015 at 5:09 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2015 at 6:47 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 8, 2015 at 8:04 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2015 at 9:52 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - December 8, 2015 at 4:10 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 8, 2015 at 10:42 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - December 9, 2015 at 1:03 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by athrock - December 9, 2015 at 1:59 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 9, 2015 at 4:51 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - December 10, 2015 at 11:52 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by athrock - December 10, 2015 at 6:14 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - December 10, 2015 at 7:39 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by athrock - December 11, 2015 at 8:34 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - December 11, 2015 at 5:42 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - December 11, 2015 at 5:48 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 22, 2015 at 10:13 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 22, 2015 at 4:59 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 23, 2015 at 2:34 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 23, 2015 at 4:06 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - December 23, 2015 at 4:35 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 28, 2015 at 4:50 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 1, 2016 at 11:27 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - December 28, 2015 at 4:58 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 28, 2015 at 5:36 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - December 28, 2015 at 6:04 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Brian37 - December 28, 2015 at 6:01 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - December 28, 2015 at 6:08 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - December 28, 2015 at 9:14 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - December 29, 2015 at 2:54 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 30, 2015 at 2:40 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Brian37 - December 28, 2015 at 9:16 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - December 29, 2015 at 12:38 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Brian37 - December 29, 2015 at 8:52 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Neo-Scholastic - December 29, 2015 at 12:41 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - December 29, 2015 at 2:42 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - December 30, 2015 at 6:16 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 1, 2016 at 12:15 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 5, 2016 at 11:54 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 7, 2016 at 1:32 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 7, 2016 at 4:51 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by GUBU - January 8, 2016 at 4:07 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 8, 2016 at 1:36 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by GUBU - January 7, 2016 at 3:54 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Esquilax - January 7, 2016 at 5:02 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 1, 2016 at 4:50 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 1, 2016 at 8:58 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - January 5, 2016 at 12:38 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - December 30, 2015 at 7:33 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 30, 2015 at 9:11 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - December 30, 2015 at 7:42 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - December 30, 2015 at 9:39 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - December 31, 2015 at 11:39 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Marcus Felix - January 4, 2016 at 7:44 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 5, 2016 at 8:19 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - January 5, 2016 at 2:11 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 5, 2016 at 8:10 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Edwardo Piet - January 5, 2016 at 2:16 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - January 5, 2016 at 2:24 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - January 5, 2016 at 9:22 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - January 6, 2016 at 2:26 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - January 7, 2016 at 5:00 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - January 8, 2016 at 4:13 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by Judashpeters - January 8, 2016 at 2:10 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 9, 2016 at 5:17 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 12, 2016 at 9:35 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 15, 2016 at 1:21 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 15, 2016 at 1:27 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 15, 2016 at 1:50 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 15, 2016 at 4:05 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 16, 2016 at 9:34 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 16, 2016 at 10:23 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 17, 2016 at 10:58 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 19, 2016 at 4:43 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 19, 2016 at 11:42 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 20, 2016 at 9:57 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 20, 2016 at 3:39 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 21, 2016 at 5:27 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 20, 2016 at 2:06 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 6:09 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 12, 2016 at 11:19 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by GUBU - January 13, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 11:37 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 18, 2016 at 12:54 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 12:56 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by dyresand - January 18, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by ApeNotKillApe - January 19, 2016 at 5:02 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - January 20, 2016 at 2:17 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by ApeNotKillApe - January 20, 2016 at 2:33 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by robvalue - January 20, 2016 at 3:41 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 22, 2016 at 9:24 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 22, 2016 at 12:13 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 22, 2016 at 12:10 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 22, 2016 at 5:27 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 24, 2016 at 2:33 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 25, 2016 at 11:52 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 25, 2016 at 5:22 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 26, 2016 at 8:53 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 26, 2016 at 5:19 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 27, 2016 at 4:48 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 27, 2016 at 5:41 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 28, 2016 at 8:42 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 26, 2016 at 4:27 pm
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 25, 2016 at 11:57 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by orangebox21 - January 28, 2016 at 11:35 am
RE: The Problem of Good - by RobbyPants - January 28, 2016 at 3:39 pm

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