@OnlyNatural
I never said all paths lead to God. If anything Jesus leads all men to Himself. However, along the way people can really reject God, and when they do this they forfiet their soul. And what good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul? But if someone is sincerely seeking the Truth they will find it, God has promised. However, "sincerely" seeking is a matter of the heart and only God sees the heart. Even we have trouble discerning the things of our own heart. For this reason I try not to be arrogant, as I know that I am in the same boat as anyone else, and that apart from God's grace I can do nothing. I seek to give mercy and hope for all men of goodwill becuase I understand that I need mercy and if I cannot have real hope that others will go to heaven then how can I have hope for myself, when I know how messed up I am?
Faith can be abused no doubt, and that is a scandal. However, we all must have faith in something. Even if it is faith that there are true propositions, and that we can seek them out with our senses requires some faith, that is faith in the existance of truth, and faith in your own senses. The only difference is that I think my belief in intrinsic value is so properly basic that I would believe it before I would believe my senses. And intrinsic value does not make sense apart from God. Therefore I hold belief in God to be properly basic. And this is consistent with the idea that faith is a gift from God, as not all people hold belief in God to be properly basic. Further, I believe that God does not hold us accountable for that which He has not given us. So if one is not given the gift of faith, that will not be held against him, instead one should work with the grace they are given in charity.
Interesting I have two friends that did the same thing.
I believe you when you say you never experienced anything overtly supernatural. If you read the journals of Mother Theresa she struggles with the same thing, and she has doubts about God too. Ultimately she never lost faith in God, but it was hard for her to hold on to her faith, and she was constantly faced with doubt. Especially because she expereinced so much evil first hand, with starvation, rape, and the immense suffering that happened in her community. I say this only to say that it is not necessary that one should expereince the supernatural first hand. Jesus said to Thomas blessed are those who believe and do not see. I'm not acting like this should just change your mind, I mean only to say that your experience is not unique within Christianity. There are many who do not experience the supernatural first hand and long for it their entire lives. This is a valid reason to doubt, but being a Christian is hard.
Suffering, even mental suffering like doubts, is the way of the cross and suffering is ultiamtely what leads to real love, in Christian theology. For example, if you want to give your loved one a gift, you first have to work to acquire the resourecs to purchase the gift, and then the gift becomes a symbol of your suffering on behalf of the one you love. Suffering is a Divine thing, and it is what gives meaning to human life, when it leads to virtures.
lol I don't blame you I would do the same thing, minus the checking into a psychiatric hospital, that is unless my visions began hurting those around me lol. But if He did appear to you and your friend also confirmed it, I imagine you would then believe and repent. I believe that God loves us more than anyone loves us and for this reason I believe that if there is any way by which we would come to salvation, short of eliminating our free will, He would do that. Including appearing to someone at the moment of their death to convince them with a first hand experience.
Well actually I think we know far less than 1% of what there is to know, and as as individual we know the smallest fraction of what there is to know. The fact is we do not know all that much. We do not even know the basics of how things work. Nobody knows for sure what gravity is. All we know is that things react a certain way, and we have incomplete theories as to why they do. My point was that we cannot even know the smallest thing to a 100% certainty. For example, I cannot even know 100% that I even exist, or the chair I am sitting in even exists. I can know it to a 99.9999% chance based on certain assumptions like I think therefore I am, but these are properly basic BELIEFS, not testable facts.
@Minimalist
But if He did would you repent and believe?
@Deistpal
That was most hateful and rude of you. You know that is offensive to me and many others. This is my thread about "My Escatological Vision" where I invite people to critique it and be honest with how they feel about it. Youre hateful insult contributes nothing to the conversation. It is a bad witness on your supposed seeking of the truth. I mean do you come to this forum to have honest discussions with people or to insult those who do not share your beliefs? I am certain that if I deliberately insulted your beliefs with no intention of contributing to the conversation whatsoever I would be "warned" or something. This looks like a double standard to me.
@pad
I think you should never quit seeking the truth, and you should honestly follow it where it takes you. Once you stop searching for the truth I think it would be like you stopped living. When I say searching for the truth I do not mean like reading a book constantly without fail, I mean living life with an openness to what is true. You can find truth in everything. Just so long as someone does not come to some point where the close their mind to any other possible world view. One should be sure of their beliefs but they should reamin humble in them. However, there is a point where humility becomes getting walked on, at that point one would be to humble. You have to find that golden mean of humility where you are not arrogant but you are not walked on.
Once again all beliefs are based at least in some measure on faith. For example, the simple faith statement that there is a Truth and that my senses can help me to find it is a properly basic belief that is not testable, and therefore not subject to scientific scrutiny. I can understand that beleif in God is to some more of a leap than belief in a truth. But I do believe that belief in God can be properly basic.
I agree that the claim that sincere and rational enquiry will always lead to Christianity is incorrect. There are many men who appear to be most sincere, like Ghandi for example, or maybe even Bertrand Russel, but they do not draw the same conclusion. What I believe is that they must have lacked the gift of faith and therefore God will judge them according to what they did with the gifts that God did give them. These men, I believe demonstrate their belief in God with their belief in Truth or Love. In purgatory I believe they wil acquire a more full understanding of who God is, and in heaven their understanding of God will eternally deepen. Perhaps it would be something like Jesus appearing to say Bertrand and revealing that all the while that he was sincerely searching truth he was actually searching for Jesus and Jesus has finally revealed Himself to him. Kind of like when Jesus appeared to Paul and said why are you persecuting Me your God. Then Paul realized that the whole time that he thought he was persecuting the enemies of God he was actually persecuting God. So it would be like a reverse of this situation lol.
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So all paths lead to your God. Too bad every other religion thinks the same thing about their god. They can't all be right. Most likely none of them are
I never said all paths lead to God. If anything Jesus leads all men to Himself. However, along the way people can really reject God, and when they do this they forfiet their soul. And what good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul? But if someone is sincerely seeking the Truth they will find it, God has promised. However, "sincerely" seeking is a matter of the heart and only God sees the heart. Even we have trouble discerning the things of our own heart. For this reason I try not to be arrogant, as I know that I am in the same boat as anyone else, and that apart from God's grace I can do nothing. I seek to give mercy and hope for all men of goodwill becuase I understand that I need mercy and if I cannot have real hope that others will go to heaven then how can I have hope for myself, when I know how messed up I am?
Quote:
Faith seems like a pretty lousy gift. The ability to just blindly believe something, despite lack of evidence or even evidence to the contrary. I prefer to use evolution's gift of intelligence and rational thinking.
Faith can be abused no doubt, and that is a scandal. However, we all must have faith in something. Even if it is faith that there are true propositions, and that we can seek them out with our senses requires some faith, that is faith in the existance of truth, and faith in your own senses. The only difference is that I think my belief in intrinsic value is so properly basic that I would believe it before I would believe my senses. And intrinsic value does not make sense apart from God. Therefore I hold belief in God to be properly basic. And this is consistent with the idea that faith is a gift from God, as not all people hold belief in God to be properly basic. Further, I believe that God does not hold us accountable for that which He has not given us. So if one is not given the gift of faith, that will not be held against him, instead one should work with the grace they are given in charity.
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I used to be a Christian, in that I swallowed the Bible's teachings whole, never questioned them, and went around feeling like God and Jesus were looking out for me. I was young and very impressionable. During my time as a Christian, I felt the wonderful warmth of a caring community, but I never experienced anything supernatural or divine, not even once. Anyway, I eventually grew up, went to university, and atheism naturally followed.
Interesting I have two friends that did the same thing.
I believe you when you say you never experienced anything overtly supernatural. If you read the journals of Mother Theresa she struggles with the same thing, and she has doubts about God too. Ultimately she never lost faith in God, but it was hard for her to hold on to her faith, and she was constantly faced with doubt. Especially because she expereinced so much evil first hand, with starvation, rape, and the immense suffering that happened in her community. I say this only to say that it is not necessary that one should expereince the supernatural first hand. Jesus said to Thomas blessed are those who believe and do not see. I'm not acting like this should just change your mind, I mean only to say that your experience is not unique within Christianity. There are many who do not experience the supernatural first hand and long for it their entire lives. This is a valid reason to doubt, but being a Christian is hard.
Suffering, even mental suffering like doubts, is the way of the cross and suffering is ultiamtely what leads to real love, in Christian theology. For example, if you want to give your loved one a gift, you first have to work to acquire the resourecs to purchase the gift, and then the gift becomes a symbol of your suffering on behalf of the one you love. Suffering is a Divine thing, and it is what gives meaning to human life, when it leads to virtures.
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If that happened, I'd grab the nearest person and ask if they saw Him too. If they didn't, I'd check into a psychiatric hospital.
lol I don't blame you I would do the same thing, minus the checking into a psychiatric hospital, that is unless my visions began hurting those around me lol. But if He did appear to you and your friend also confirmed it, I imagine you would then believe and repent. I believe that God loves us more than anyone loves us and for this reason I believe that if there is any way by which we would come to salvation, short of eliminating our free will, He would do that. Including appearing to someone at the moment of their death to convince them with a first hand experience.
Quote:
And you're hoping that God fits into that 1% that we don't yet understand, even though the 99% of the world we do understand lacks any evidence of his existence. That's just wishful thinking.
Well actually I think we know far less than 1% of what there is to know, and as as individual we know the smallest fraction of what there is to know. The fact is we do not know all that much. We do not even know the basics of how things work. Nobody knows for sure what gravity is. All we know is that things react a certain way, and we have incomplete theories as to why they do. My point was that we cannot even know the smallest thing to a 100% certainty. For example, I cannot even know 100% that I even exist, or the chair I am sitting in even exists. I can know it to a 99.9999% chance based on certain assumptions like I think therefore I am, but these are properly basic BELIEFS, not testable facts.
@Minimalist
Quote:
But he didn't and it seems that the stories that claim he did are nothing but a pile of shit designed to con gullible fools.
But if He did would you repent and believe?
@Deistpal
That was most hateful and rude of you. You know that is offensive to me and many others. This is my thread about "My Escatological Vision" where I invite people to critique it and be honest with how they feel about it. Youre hateful insult contributes nothing to the conversation. It is a bad witness on your supposed seeking of the truth. I mean do you come to this forum to have honest discussions with people or to insult those who do not share your beliefs? I am certain that if I deliberately insulted your beliefs with no intention of contributing to the conversation whatsoever I would be "warned" or something. This looks like a double standard to me.
@pad
Quote: How long should one seek ?
I sought for about 24 years,from age 16, when I began seriously questioning Catholicism,to age 40,when I realised I was an atheist. Christianity went first.I found it to be the most fatuous of all the Abrahamic faiths.(it's a matter of degree)
Sincere,rational enquiry,looking for evidence,led me away from Christianity and all religions. I found no evidence ,and no belief.
I understand but do not agree with or respect beliefs based on faith.(ie unsupported by evidence) THAT is simple superstition.
The claim that sincere and rational enquiry will lead to Christianity is either a barefaced lie or pig ignorant stupidity. I can see no other alternatives
I think you should never quit seeking the truth, and you should honestly follow it where it takes you. Once you stop searching for the truth I think it would be like you stopped living. When I say searching for the truth I do not mean like reading a book constantly without fail, I mean living life with an openness to what is true. You can find truth in everything. Just so long as someone does not come to some point where the close their mind to any other possible world view. One should be sure of their beliefs but they should reamin humble in them. However, there is a point where humility becomes getting walked on, at that point one would be to humble. You have to find that golden mean of humility where you are not arrogant but you are not walked on.
Once again all beliefs are based at least in some measure on faith. For example, the simple faith statement that there is a Truth and that my senses can help me to find it is a properly basic belief that is not testable, and therefore not subject to scientific scrutiny. I can understand that beleif in God is to some more of a leap than belief in a truth. But I do believe that belief in God can be properly basic.
I agree that the claim that sincere and rational enquiry will always lead to Christianity is incorrect. There are many men who appear to be most sincere, like Ghandi for example, or maybe even Bertrand Russel, but they do not draw the same conclusion. What I believe is that they must have lacked the gift of faith and therefore God will judge them according to what they did with the gifts that God did give them. These men, I believe demonstrate their belief in God with their belief in Truth or Love. In purgatory I believe they wil acquire a more full understanding of who God is, and in heaven their understanding of God will eternally deepen. Perhaps it would be something like Jesus appearing to say Bertrand and revealing that all the while that he was sincerely searching truth he was actually searching for Jesus and Jesus has finally revealed Himself to him. Kind of like when Jesus appeared to Paul and said why are you persecuting Me your God. Then Paul realized that the whole time that he thought he was persecuting the enemies of God he was actually persecuting God. So it would be like a reverse of this situation lol.
