The Problem of Good

[orangebox21]

The God I serve created you in His image.  "Free-will" included.

Is >"YOUR"< god >"ALL"< knowing?

Yes

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The God I serve created you in His image.  "Free-will" included.

When Jesus returns he's going to kill all life and destroy the world.  Since you serve him are you looking forward to help him kill all life on Earth?

Where is it written that I am going to help him kill all life on Earth?

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Yeah, what about the devil?

Can god stop him interfering? If so, why doesn't he? By allowing the devil to screw with us, he is endorsing the behaviour.

Given you believe that we should stick to verifiable science (post #58), what is your scientific experiment to verify the above statement?

The devil is simply a scapegoat so that God doesn't have to take responsibility for the "bad" parts. But whoever has ultimate power has ultimate responsibility.

And your falsifiable scientific verification for this is?

By allowing the devil to screw with us, he is endorsing the behaviour.

But whoever has ultimate power has ultimate responsibility.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record here, but.... what is your scientific verification for the above statements?

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That's actually the plan of the unbelieving world at the time.  And the results are...(Revelation 19:11-21)

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Reading verses 15-18 should lead a person to ask the question in verse 19, "How can He blame us, for who can resist His will?  

The answer is found in verses 20-24.

Two things to take away from this.  First, these are questions of authority.  Who get's the right to decide how something is used?  The maker or the made?  Secondly, it appears God's reason for functioning this way is to demonstrate His wrath, make His power known, and to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy.

Personally, I feel this answer is a bit of a cop out. Now, it might be consistent with what you were saying about both God and us being responsible for doing good, but it still (potentially) results in a situation where God isn't allowing as much good as he could. Saying "who are you to question me!?" is just a misdirection at that point. About the best counter I can see to that would be to assert that God works in [mysterious ways] and that his reasons for holding back are actually more good, and we just don't see it (basically, the Best of all Possible Worlds defense). This, strictly speaking, could be true, but the reasoning is entirely ad hoc. Basically, the answer satisfies the apologist, but not the skeptic.


Anyway, I think you explained your position a lot better now, and it makes sense (well, as much sense as it's going to make to a dirty heathen). Thanks for clarifying. Happy New Year!

Interestingly I thought about discussing God working in mysterious ways but figured it would be viewed as a "cop out."  Ultimately I choose not to because I think the passage explains God's mysterious ways.  It doesn't leave the reader solely with the question "who are you to question me?"  It says that He is acting in this way to make Himself known.  He is revealing that He is just (wrathful) and that He is merciful.

While I try to not base the foundation of my argumentation on such arguments, I would agree this is in a sense like the "Best of all Possible Worlds defense."  I would rather that you consider the passage in Romans 9.  It answers the question:  How can God who is both just and merciful communicate these attributes to His creation?  By creating a world in which good and evil exists, He and His glory are greater.  In other words, in a world with only good where all men are saved, the glory and attribute of His justice would be unknown.  Similarly in a world with only evil, where all men are condemned, the glory and attribute of His mercy would be unknown.  

I would like to add that the conversation we have been having is my heart's desire.  I recognize that we most likely will end our conversation in disagreement.  The hope I have come to have is that conversations can be had with the intention of an honest exchange of ideas, and that we would have dialog.  Thank you for facilitating this, and happy new year to you as well.  

Firstly I'd like to say that we, being finite beings with limited minds cannot fully understand an infinite Deity.

That's always been a cop out answer. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's just a "cuz I say so" assertion. No one has ever been able to describe God's mysterious ways; we're just told his ways are mysterious, and that's that. It's a hand wave to remove further scrutiny.

Hopefully from the above explanation you can understand a bit more about God's 'mysterious ways.'  

My first question would be: why doesn't God stop the devil?

Hopefully from the above explanation you have insight into this question as well.

This asymmetry is both annoying and also somewhat problematic for the whole problem of evil (hence, my thread title). If God is ultimately responsible for good, why isn't there more good?

Is mercy good?  Yes.  Is justice good?  Yes.  Then whether there is mercy or there is justice there is good, and there is more good to have both than either one or the other.