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Seeing red
RE: Seeing red
(January 23, 2016 at 12:02 am)bennyboy Wrote:
(January 22, 2016 at 11:13 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: No it isn't a memory.  The information is represented in these states, but these states do not form a representational system.  Note that in the case of the robot, a representational system consists of information, a system for representing it, and an environment for which that representation is meaningful (and by meaningful here I mean that it contains information which, by its content, guides the behavior of the representational system; in the robot driver example, this element is reflected by the road being represented being amenable to the motion of the vehicle; a robot driver in mid-air or on its back wouldn't be representing objects in a meaningful sense).

Does not a single photon from a thousand light years away affect the state of even an entire galaxy?  Isn't the way the galaxy unfolds a "behavior?"

Why do you ask, do you need to equivocate on a few terms?

(January 23, 2016 at 12:02 am)bennyboy Wrote: It still seems to me that we are using a lot of substance-dualist words here: intention, meaning, even behavior.  But it is WE as thinking humans who see intention, meaning and behavior in some systems.

Or those systems really have it and all your posturing about WE as thinking humans is just special pleading.  "They have intentionality but it's not real intentionality, it's derived."  Yes I have the ability to describe the robots behavior in terms of meaning and intention.  Unless you're just begging the question, there is no difference between the applied use of these terms to describe the robot than there is to describe WE humans.  "The robots have aboutness but it's not the kind of aboutness that I have."  How would you know? All you're doing is suggesting that we have richer systems for intentionality and meaning in that we can use our concepts to ascribe meaning to the behavior of robots. That doesn't exclude the possibility that the robots behaviors are deserving of such description.

In an experiment at the Max Planck institute, dogs and chimpanzees were compared for their performance on a simple test. The test would put a small reward under one of two cups, and the experimenter would point to the cup that concealed the reward. The task was to find the reward. The dogs did well on the task, going straight to the cup with the reward, whereas the chimps were not helped by the pointing. Obviously the dogs understood that the pointing finger was 'about' something in a line from the end of the finger. They understood the intentionality of the gesture, and no amount of human reinterpreting can take that away from them.

A few additional points. First, it's clear that if dogs can possess intentionality, it doesn't take much hardware to implement it. Much as we love our dogs, they aren't exceptional as a species in terms of intelligence. Second, while the test was not performed with wolves, I suspect wolves would be just as stymied as the chimpanzees; and if not the wolves, at least a recent ancestor of them. This would show that it takes a relatively short time, 10,000 years, to evolve such intentional behavior. This suggests that the machinery for such behaviors already exists in species like the wolves or the chimpanzees, simply awaiting for evolution to tease it out into a manifest behavior. Third, it points to the possibility that intentionality can evolve. Unless we are postulating doggy souls, some mechanistic change occurred in the brain over the course of those 10,000 years to bring out this intentionality. This suggests that the substance necessary for such behaviors is a mechanism, not some mysterious ectoplasm.

So, no, it isn't only WE as thinking humans, but quite likely much of the animal kingdom.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Seeing red - by emjay - December 29, 2015 at 10:58 pm
RE: Seeing red - by ignoramus - December 29, 2015 at 11:15 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - December 30, 2015 at 12:20 am
RE: Seeing red - by Losty - December 30, 2015 at 12:52 am
RE: Seeing red - by henryp - December 30, 2015 at 1:28 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - December 30, 2015 at 8:55 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - December 30, 2015 at 8:17 am
RE: Seeing red - by MysticKnight - December 30, 2015 at 12:58 am
RE: Seeing red - by Losty - December 30, 2015 at 1:08 am
RE: Seeing red - by MysticKnight - December 30, 2015 at 1:14 am
RE: Seeing red - by Excited Penguin - December 30, 2015 at 1:15 am
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - December 30, 2015 at 9:15 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - December 30, 2015 at 10:07 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - December 30, 2015 at 11:21 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - December 30, 2015 at 6:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - December 30, 2015 at 6:57 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - December 30, 2015 at 8:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 30, 2015 at 7:35 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - December 30, 2015 at 9:18 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - December 31, 2015 at 12:31 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - December 31, 2015 at 8:26 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 1, 2016 at 12:30 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 11:28 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 4:01 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 4:12 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 7:13 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 7:17 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 13, 2016 at 8:50 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 7:27 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 7:40 pm
RE: Seeing red - by JuliaL - January 9, 2016 at 7:37 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 9:11 pm
RE: Seeing red - by JuliaL - January 9, 2016 at 9:51 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 10:03 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 8:21 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 9:36 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 10:03 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 9, 2016 at 11:36 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Valkyrie - January 13, 2016 at 8:52 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 13, 2016 at 9:27 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 13, 2016 at 10:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 14, 2016 at 2:43 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 13, 2016 at 11:10 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 13, 2016 at 11:52 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 14, 2016 at 2:52 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 14, 2016 at 3:35 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2016 at 7:40 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 15, 2016 at 10:38 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2016 at 5:42 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 16, 2016 at 9:53 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 16, 2016 at 7:41 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 16, 2016 at 8:37 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 16, 2016 at 9:57 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 16, 2016 at 11:17 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 16, 2016 at 11:24 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 16, 2016 at 11:27 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 16, 2016 at 11:32 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 16, 2016 at 11:45 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 12:40 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 2:42 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 2:17 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 3:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 5:04 am
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 17, 2016 at 5:59 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 6:10 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 4:26 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 17, 2016 at 6:14 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 17, 2016 at 1:44 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 4:44 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 17, 2016 at 9:38 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 11:36 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 19, 2016 at 3:51 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 6:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 19, 2016 at 1:37 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 8:23 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 20, 2016 at 12:16 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 12:34 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 5:06 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 5:00 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 5:18 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 5:21 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 8:28 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 6:25 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 8:40 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 9:13 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 11:47 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 11:39 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 17, 2016 at 11:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 12:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 1:10 am
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 18, 2016 at 1:17 am
RE: Seeing red - by Losty - January 18, 2016 at 12:14 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 1:08 am
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 18, 2016 at 12:17 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 1:15 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 1:21 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 8:57 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 18, 2016 at 7:42 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 9:21 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 18, 2016 at 10:40 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 11:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 18, 2016 at 2:12 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 1:10 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 1:23 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 1:28 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 1:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 1:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 1:38 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 6:57 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 7:02 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 7:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 7:45 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 8:16 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 9:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 8:55 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 9:22 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 9:24 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 9:34 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 9:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 9:35 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 9:37 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 18, 2016 at 9:51 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2016 at 10:01 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2016 at 12:52 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 1:15 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 19, 2016 at 12:44 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 1:03 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2016 at 12:18 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 12:30 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 19, 2016 at 12:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 12:39 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2016 at 12:37 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2016 at 12:44 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 12:51 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2016 at 1:16 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 19, 2016 at 8:07 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 20, 2016 at 12:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 20, 2016 at 12:20 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 20, 2016 at 12:29 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 20, 2016 at 3:10 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 20, 2016 at 4:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 20, 2016 at 3:13 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 20, 2016 at 3:18 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 20, 2016 at 3:24 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 20, 2016 at 3:34 am
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 20, 2016 at 6:28 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 20, 2016 at 9:23 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 21, 2016 at 2:27 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 20, 2016 at 7:46 pm
Seeing red - by LadyForCamus - January 20, 2016 at 11:21 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 21, 2016 at 1:50 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 21, 2016 at 5:32 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 21, 2016 at 7:19 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 21, 2016 at 11:16 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 21, 2016 at 10:22 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 21, 2016 at 11:57 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 22, 2016 at 3:26 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 22, 2016 at 3:59 am
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 22, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 22, 2016 at 8:07 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 23, 2016 at 6:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 23, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 23, 2016 at 7:12 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 23, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 24, 2016 at 11:26 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 1:27 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 24, 2016 at 2:11 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 2:58 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 23, 2016 at 10:07 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 22, 2016 at 11:15 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 23, 2016 at 12:07 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 23, 2016 at 9:21 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 21, 2016 at 12:07 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 21, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 22, 2016 at 6:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 22, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 22, 2016 at 7:55 pm
YOU - by The Grand Nudger - January 22, 2016 at 8:11 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 22, 2016 at 8:19 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 22, 2016 at 8:27 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 22, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 22, 2016 at 10:18 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 22, 2016 at 10:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 22, 2016 at 11:02 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 22, 2016 at 11:13 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 23, 2016 at 12:02 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 23, 2016 at 1:06 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 23, 2016 at 2:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 23, 2016 at 3:28 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 23, 2016 at 10:39 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 23, 2016 at 11:27 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 24, 2016 at 12:01 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 12:04 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 22, 2016 at 11:17 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 23, 2016 at 12:03 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 22, 2016 at 8:43 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - January 22, 2016 at 10:40 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 23, 2016 at 2:17 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 23, 2016 at 2:44 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 24, 2016 at 1:14 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 2:05 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 1:32 am
RE: Seeing red - by Foxaèr - January 24, 2016 at 1:37 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 24, 2016 at 2:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 2:46 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 24, 2016 at 4:12 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 24, 2016 at 6:56 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 3:42 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 3:53 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 24, 2016 at 7:02 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 11:28 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 24, 2016 at 12:00 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 12:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 12:19 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 24, 2016 at 2:30 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 24, 2016 at 6:39 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 24, 2016 at 3:05 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 24, 2016 at 3:18 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 25, 2016 at 4:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 25, 2016 at 10:11 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 26, 2016 at 12:38 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 26, 2016 at 6:34 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 26, 2016 at 7:20 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 26, 2016 at 8:42 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 26, 2016 at 11:27 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 26, 2016 at 12:47 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 26, 2016 at 12:36 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 26, 2016 at 12:51 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 26, 2016 at 1:55 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 26, 2016 at 8:23 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 27, 2016 at 6:27 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 26, 2016 at 2:03 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 26, 2016 at 8:19 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 26, 2016 at 2:59 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 26, 2016 at 7:29 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 26, 2016 at 8:25 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 30, 2016 at 10:52 am
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 31, 2016 at 10:20 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 27, 2016 at 7:56 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 27, 2016 at 8:25 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 27, 2016 at 8:12 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 27, 2016 at 9:10 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 27, 2016 at 9:49 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 27, 2016 at 12:44 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 27, 2016 at 1:38 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 27, 2016 at 7:25 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 28, 2016 at 9:45 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 28, 2016 at 11:48 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 29, 2016 at 8:32 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 29, 2016 at 1:14 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - January 29, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 29, 2016 at 3:14 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 29, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 29, 2016 at 8:34 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 29, 2016 at 8:51 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 30, 2016 at 2:01 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 30, 2016 at 7:08 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 30, 2016 at 9:32 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 30, 2016 at 10:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 31, 2016 at 1:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 31, 2016 at 8:18 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 31, 2016 at 10:52 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 31, 2016 at 11:14 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 29, 2016 at 4:39 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 29, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 29, 2016 at 10:01 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 30, 2016 at 2:47 am
RE: Seeing red - by Neo-Scholastic - January 30, 2016 at 12:48 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - January 30, 2016 at 6:45 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 30, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - January 31, 2016 at 11:22 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - January 31, 2016 at 11:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 1, 2016 at 12:10 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 1, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 1, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 1, 2016 at 8:39 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 1, 2016 at 8:55 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 8:54 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 1, 2016 at 8:21 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 8:24 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 1, 2016 at 8:29 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 8:37 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 1, 2016 at 8:46 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 1, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 1, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 8:59 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 2, 2016 at 2:10 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 1, 2016 at 9:14 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 1, 2016 at 9:20 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 1, 2016 at 9:32 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 1, 2016 at 10:26 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 1, 2016 at 11:20 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 1, 2016 at 11:45 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 2, 2016 at 7:19 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 2, 2016 at 9:50 am
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 3, 2016 at 2:23 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 3:26 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 11:39 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 9:35 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 1, 2016 at 10:04 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 10:13 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 1, 2016 at 10:49 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 2, 2016 at 10:22 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 2, 2016 at 11:50 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 2, 2016 at 11:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 5:35 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 2, 2016 at 7:45 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 12:18 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 1:38 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 12:54 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 1:47 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 1:47 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 2:02 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 2:11 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 2:07 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 2:12 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 2:34 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 3:35 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 6:06 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 6:17 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 6:57 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 7:37 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 7:47 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 7:58 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 8:09 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 8:14 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 8:14 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 8:05 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 7:56 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 8:23 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 8:08 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 9:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 8:21 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 8:55 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 8:58 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 8:57 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 9:14 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 7:36 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 4, 2016 at 8:00 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 4, 2016 at 8:20 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 5, 2016 at 10:15 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 5, 2016 at 8:23 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 5, 2016 at 9:25 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 9:06 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 3, 2016 at 9:19 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 3, 2016 at 9:18 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 3, 2016 at 7:38 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 4, 2016 at 9:21 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 4, 2016 at 12:30 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 4, 2016 at 8:27 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 4, 2016 at 2:51 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 4, 2016 at 4:36 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 4, 2016 at 4:44 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 4, 2016 at 6:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 4, 2016 at 9:50 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 5, 2016 at 12:13 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 12:42 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 5, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 3:01 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 5, 2016 at 9:20 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 11:25 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 5, 2016 at 12:20 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 5, 2016 at 8:29 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 12:48 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 5, 2016 at 7:40 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 8:44 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 5, 2016 at 9:09 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 5, 2016 at 10:17 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 9:17 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Catholic_Lady - February 5, 2016 at 10:26 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 5, 2016 at 10:33 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Catholic_Lady - February 5, 2016 at 10:35 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Angrboda - February 5, 2016 at 11:01 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - February 6, 2016 at 12:33 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 6, 2016 at 2:44 am
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 6, 2016 at 6:20 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 5, 2016 at 10:40 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 10:55 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Catholic_Lady - February 5, 2016 at 10:58 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 10:59 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Catholic_Lady - February 5, 2016 at 11:02 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 5, 2016 at 11:05 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 5, 2016 at 11:08 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Catholic_Lady - February 5, 2016 at 11:10 pm
RE: Seeing red - by Edwardo Piet - February 6, 2016 at 3:48 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 8, 2016 at 9:11 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 9, 2016 at 12:06 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 9, 2016 at 9:48 am
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 9, 2016 at 11:30 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 9, 2016 at 12:11 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 9, 2016 at 12:38 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 9, 2016 at 5:02 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 9, 2016 at 1:46 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 9, 2016 at 5:30 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 9, 2016 at 5:53 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 10, 2016 at 11:31 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 10, 2016 at 3:19 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 10, 2016 at 11:55 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 11, 2016 at 10:11 pm
RE: Seeing red - by The Grand Nudger - February 15, 2016 at 8:55 am
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 15, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Seeing red - by bennyboy - February 15, 2016 at 5:30 pm
RE: Seeing red - by emjay - February 15, 2016 at 5:54 pm



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