(January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:Sorry for the confusion. I'm not saying: God is the only one who can verify if He's telling the truth therefore He's telling the truth. I'm saying that if He is telling the truth, the only reason to know that He is telling the truth is because of His testimony.(January 22, 2016 at 5:27 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The only reason to know He is telling the truth is because He is the only one able to testify to the truth of the statement.
That doesn't logically follow. Just because he's the only one who could verify it doesn't mean that he's telling the truth.
(January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:How so? How can God prove to you that He is all knowing without you being all knowing?(January 22, 2016 at 5:27 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Ok. I disagree that knowledge is impossible, but I certainly understand your position. The only way for it to be proven to you that God exists is for you to be as God is and since you're not God it can never be proven to you that He exists as claimed.This doesn't logically follow. God could simply make himself falsifiable without modifying me at all.
(January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:To avoid confusion, God didn't create divine law, free will, nor sin. Divine law was given to mankind and it is a reflection of the holiness of God and our standing before it. Our free will is a result of having been created in God's image. God has a free will and is not a created being, therefore free will was not created. With respect to sin, and I'm sure you'd agree, at most you could claim God created a world with the potential for sin. Yet given our will, God is not responsible for sin as it was a consequence of our actions.(January 22, 2016 at 5:27 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: He didn't create sin.
Sin is a transgression of divine law. Without divine law, there can be no sin. God created divine law and free will, and thus the ability for sin.
That being said, in a sense, you can say that God created these things but you do so at the risk of creating confusion due to the ambiguity of the term 'create.'
(January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: You can argue that we're creating it by sinning, but only because he set up the possibility for it in the first place.I agree, God's created order allowed for sin.
(January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So far, I haven't seen any non-circular reason for sin to exist other than that "God wants it", cuz reasons. And if he set up the system and wants it to exist... then he pretty much created it. And if you still take beef with that wording, I'll change it to "he is responsible for it".Only in a deterministic system.
(January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:I gave you two in post #127. You could add "to make known the glory of His wrath and mercy" to make four purposes. But even if I knew a hundred purposes for which God works through sin, isn't that just "God wants it, cuz 100 reasons" in your mind?(January 22, 2016 at 5:27 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: I did not say that sin's only purpose is that salvation is feely received.What is the other purpose? So far, you've only alluded to mercy and justice, which are ways in which God interacts with sin. Basically, this is saying that God's purpose for sin is so that he can interact with it. But to what end?
(January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:You're right. I changed the question from post #115 into a statement of request in post # 130 (hidden in the show content). I'd read the "show content" from the last post for context, but the question is: How do you know God had an infinite number of ways He could have chosen to deal with?(January 22, 2016 at 5:27 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Please answer the question you've ignored twice.
Which question is that? I didn't see any questions in this last post.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?