The Problem of Good

[orangebox21]

Sorry for the confusion.  I'm not saying: God is the only one who can verify if He's telling the truth therefore He's telling the truth.  I'm saying that if He is telling the truth, the only reason to know that He is telling the truth is because of His testimony.

Agreed, but do you understand why I don't find someone's testimony as to their own honestly non-convincing? Do you understand why I said you can't know they're telling the truth just based on that?

Yep, which is why I wrote:

Ok.  I disagree that knowledge is impossible [of the claim that God cannot lie], but I certainly understand your position.

in post #130.

How so?  How can God prove to you that He is all knowing without you being all knowing?

If you're getting at this in the sense of "can we really know anything?", then I agree with you. I agree in the same sense that I can't actually know my car is silver without being "all knowing", but I think that sort of definition is a bit trite and contrived.

Ok, so how can God prove to you that He is all knowing?

In the sense that I can reasonably know my car is silver (I do, and it is), God could make himself be reasonably known.

We weren't talking about God making Himself known, we were talking about how God could prove that He can't lie, or is all knowing, etc.  

I gave you two in post #127.  You could add "to make known the glory of His wrath and mercy" to make four purposes.  But even if I knew a hundred purposes for which God works through sin, isn't that just "God wants it, cuz 100 reasons" in your mind?

Technically, I'm counting three, but it doesn't really matter if it is four or 100. So far, every reason you've given me for sin to exist is a circular example to show how God interacts with sin. All of these reasons could be paraphrased "God uses sin to interact with sin".

Sure.  In every instance that God uses sin to bring about His purpose sin is involved.      

What is it's ultimate purpose other than for God to use it to interact with it? That's the problem. I guess I can give you props for not resorting to "mysterious ways" like everyone else I've talked to does, but it's all still self-referencing. The best consistent answer I can see coming from what I've read so far is "cuz God wants it". While that type of answer is honest and consistent, it also renders everything arbitrary.

I don't know that there's a single ultimate purpose revealed in scripture, except perhaps to glorify Himself.  A concept that is repulsive to the unbeliever, and at times to some Christians.

You're right.  I changed the question from post #115  into a statement of request in post # 130 (hidden in the show content).  I'd read the "show content" from the last post for context, but the question is:  How do you know God had an infinite number of ways He could have chosen to deal with?

You said his only limitation is that he cannot do things outside of his nature. If he is otherwise all powerful, he should be able to do an infinite number of things. Even if you subtract out "things against his nature", you're still left with infinity.

You're equivocating 'infinite' and 'powerful'.  Think simple.  If there are things God cannot do, does He have an infinite number of choices of things He can do?

The only way you limit God to not having infinity options is to put (arbitrary) specific stated limits on him. These are all ad hoc, of course, but that's the only logical way an otherwise all-powerful being can be limited.

You really like throwing around words like arbitrary, ad hoc, and circular.  If I assert that God cannot do X because X is contrary to His nature then there is a stated reason.  To say that God cannot do something just because would be arbitrary.  In the same way if something is ad hoc it is for the particular end or case at hand without consideration of wider application.  So saying that God cannot do X because His nature does not allow it is not ad hoc because it is considering the larger application.  Namely that we have to take into consideration God's nature when speaking about the choices He makes.

To avoid confusion, God didn't create divine law, free will, nor sin.  

Okay. Going with that...

Divine law was given to mankind and it is a reflection of the holiness of God and our standing before it.

How is this not God creating divine law? If he "gave" it to us, where did it come from?

God's nature is Holy.
God's nature is inherent to His being.
God is eternal.
Therefore God's holiness is eternal.
Something that is eternal cannot be created.

Like I said, the law is a reflection of the holiness of God and our standing before it.  The 10 commandments are simply a physical representation of the holiness of God (a non-created attribute of His eternal nature).

Our free will is a result of having been created in God's image. God has a free will and is not a created being, therefore free will was not created.

The context was "our" free will, not God's. It doesn't matter how God got his free will. If he created us in his definition, then he created human free will. Human free will is what is being discussed. The origin of God's is a red herring.

Free will, as is God's holiness, is a non-created attribute of His eternal nature .  So you can say that God created man in His image and therefore man has the capacity for free will, but that is a different statement than claiming that God created "human free will."