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Morality versus afterlife
RE: Morality versus afterlife
To summarize for a newcomer to the thread.  Objective:  not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts  Subjective:  based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.  Both autonomy and utilitarianism are ontologically or foundationally derived from subjectivity and are therefore categorically subjective moralities.  Autonomy is inherently subjective in that the moral truth value of a given action is entirely up to the personal feelings, and opinions of each individual.  A statement that has been affirmed within this thread.  Utilitarianism is subjective in that it derives the moral truth value of a given action based upon maximizing well-being, and well-being is entirely determined by the personal feelings or opinions of the individual's involved.  This is also a statement that has been affirmed within this thread.  However, both autonomy and utilitarianism are inconsistent and should therefore be rejected as a reasonable explanation for the ontology of morality.

Autonomy is inconsistent with reality in that while it maintains morality is not objective, society applies moral laws objectively.  If autonomy were true then no single moral truth claim could be applied to multiple individuals as this would be inconsistent with the foundation of autonomy.  In other words, autonomy as a moral framework, prevents any universal application of a moral truth claim.  Yet, we as a society function in just the opposite way.  Society functions by universally applying moral truth claims.  Take the moral truth claim:  it is wrong to murder.  Society has establishes a law, based upon this moral truth claim, stating that murder is illegal, and that anyone who murders will be punished.  If autonomy were true, then a person who murders wouldn't be punished.  If autonomy were true, society would respond to the murderer by saying, well that's immoral for me, but moral for you, therefore we have no basis by which to punish you.  It is in this way that autonomy is inconsistent with reality and should therefore be rejected as an explanation of the ontology of morality.

Utilitarianism is logically inconsistent.  Utilitarianism determines the moral truth value of a given action based solely upon whether or not the action maximizes well-being, and well-being is ultimately subject to an individual's opinions and preferences.  Therefore the foundation or origin of morality within the utilitarian framework is subjective.  The foundation of utilitarian morality is at it's essence one single moral rule:  Do what maximizes well-being.  Any action concurring with this rule is moral, and any action contradicting the rule is immoral.  Functioning within utilitarianism however, requires applying the moral rule universally and thus subjecting every individual to it.  Therein lies the inconsistency.  If something is applied universally it is no longer subject to an individual's feelings or opinions and is therefore no longer subjective.  This is a category mistake.  Because utilitarianism derives it's moral truth values subjectively but functions objectively it makes a category mistake.  Therefore, because utilitarianism is logically inconsistent it should be rejected as an explanation of the ontology of morality.

So what about God?  Isn't He a person?  Isn't His asserted morality subjective in that His morality is derived from His personal feelings or opinions?  If God is a person and He determines morality then isn't morality subjective after all?  Is the Christian moral framework logically inconsistent as well?  These are common objections that demand an answer.  In Christianity, the moral truth value of a given action is determined not by God's personal feelings or opinions but by His inherent nature.  This is why Christians can consistently claim that morality is objective.  Morality is determined as an extension or expression of God's eternal nature, it is not determined by His personal feelings or opinions.  Therefore it is by definition objective.  From our perspective, it is also objective in that it is determined outside of mankind's personal feelings, tastes, or opinions and is therefore universally applicable to us.  Between utilitarianism, autonomy, and Christianity, only Christianity can provide a logically consistent framework of morality, and thus a reasonable ontology of morality.

If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?



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Messages In This Thread
Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 6, 2016 at 1:21 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by abaris - January 6, 2016 at 1:24 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 6, 2016 at 1:26 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by abaris - January 6, 2016 at 1:29 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Excited Penguin - January 23, 2016 at 8:11 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 6, 2016 at 1:36 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Brian37 - January 6, 2016 at 1:38 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by brewer - January 6, 2016 at 2:17 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 6, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Old Baby - January 6, 2016 at 3:10 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 7, 2016 at 1:32 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Old Baby - January 7, 2016 at 9:28 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 8, 2016 at 12:08 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Old Baby - January 8, 2016 at 12:55 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Excited Penguin - January 23, 2016 at 8:22 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 6, 2016 at 3:15 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 6, 2016 at 11:54 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Jenny A - January 7, 2016 at 1:52 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 6, 2016 at 11:54 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 7, 2016 at 5:24 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 7, 2016 at 1:34 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by TrueChristian - January 8, 2016 at 4:35 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Brian37 - January 8, 2016 at 4:54 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 8, 2016 at 5:39 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 9, 2016 at 3:29 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Brian37 - January 9, 2016 at 7:28 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 9, 2016 at 5:44 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 2:35 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 9, 2016 at 2:57 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Simon Moon - January 9, 2016 at 3:38 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 9, 2016 at 4:01 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 9, 2016 at 4:43 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Simon Moon - January 10, 2016 at 2:40 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 11, 2016 at 2:29 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Old Baby - January 11, 2016 at 2:04 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 9, 2016 at 3:45 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 3:40 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 3:47 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 9, 2016 at 3:49 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2016 at 4:38 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 9, 2016 at 7:05 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 9, 2016 at 6:22 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 9, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 10, 2016 at 1:46 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 10, 2016 at 9:40 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 10, 2016 at 10:32 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Edwardo Piet - January 10, 2016 at 10:36 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 12, 2016 at 12:06 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 10, 2016 at 10:41 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 10, 2016 at 12:43 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 11, 2016 at 4:18 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 11, 2016 at 5:36 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 11, 2016 at 5:41 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 11, 2016 at 10:39 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 11, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by miaharun - January 11, 2016 at 12:53 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 11, 2016 at 1:05 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by miaharun - January 11, 2016 at 1:08 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 11, 2016 at 5:40 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 11, 2016 at 5:53 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 12, 2016 at 12:53 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 19, 2016 at 11:53 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 12, 2016 at 4:04 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 20, 2016 at 12:43 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 14, 2016 at 5:44 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 15, 2016 at 6:12 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 14, 2016 at 5:47 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 15, 2016 at 6:48 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 16, 2016 at 11:12 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 15, 2016 at 11:36 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Divinity - January 15, 2016 at 12:08 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2016 at 12:13 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlif - by robvalue - January 15, 2016 at 12:15 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 15, 2016 at 11:21 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 16, 2016 at 4:30 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 11:00 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 16, 2016 at 3:54 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 9:10 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 16, 2016 at 9:14 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 10:02 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 17, 2016 at 12:41 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 17, 2016 at 3:10 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 17, 2016 at 3:25 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Edwardo Piet - January 17, 2016 at 8:45 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Pat Mustard - January 18, 2016 at 4:01 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Edwardo Piet - January 20, 2016 at 2:02 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Cecelia - January 16, 2016 at 1:23 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Brian37 - January 16, 2016 at 7:51 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 11:07 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Cecelia - January 16, 2016 at 1:31 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 2:04 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Cecelia - January 16, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 3:21 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2016 at 11:53 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 1:51 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 19, 2016 at 11:03 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 16, 2016 at 12:34 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2016 at 12:39 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 16, 2016 at 12:40 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2016 at 12:42 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2016 at 3:27 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 8:59 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Cecelia - January 16, 2016 at 3:50 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by KevinM1 - January 16, 2016 at 4:27 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ktrap - January 16, 2016 at 9:08 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2016 at 4:05 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 17, 2016 at 5:27 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ApeNotKillApe - January 17, 2016 at 5:31 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 17, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by ApeNotKillApe - January 17, 2016 at 5:38 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Reforged - January 20, 2016 at 12:10 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 20, 2016 at 2:00 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - January 20, 2016 at 2:44 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 20, 2016 at 10:01 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Drich - January 20, 2016 at 9:58 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Brian37 - January 20, 2016 at 3:28 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Pat Mustard - January 21, 2016 at 3:35 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Drich - January 22, 2016 at 11:13 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by SofaKingHigh - January 22, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Drich - January 22, 2016 at 1:59 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Grandizer - January 22, 2016 at 7:10 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by SofaKingHigh - January 25, 2016 at 5:37 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Angrboda - January 26, 2016 at 12:13 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 20, 2016 at 9:58 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 20, 2016 at 9:50 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Edwardo Piet - January 21, 2016 at 3:44 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 20, 2016 at 3:56 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 21, 2016 at 4:13 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 31, 2016 at 5:21 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Esquilax - January 31, 2016 at 7:15 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - January 31, 2016 at 8:35 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Esquilax - February 1, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 22, 2016 at 7:16 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 23, 2016 at 6:36 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - January 26, 2016 at 2:13 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 1, 2016 at 12:06 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - February 1, 2016 at 12:55 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 1, 2016 at 1:13 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 1, 2016 at 3:38 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 1, 2016 at 5:19 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 1, 2016 at 9:03 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 9:15 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 1, 2016 at 9:42 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - February 1, 2016 at 9:50 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 2, 2016 at 1:53 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 2, 2016 at 10:55 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - February 28, 2016 at 7:18 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by orangebox21 - February 3, 2016 at 4:08 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 8, 2016 at 4:11 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - February 6, 2016 at 9:21 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 7, 2016 at 5:11 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by Edwardo Piet - February 7, 2016 at 6:13 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - February 8, 2016 at 11:00 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - February 8, 2016 at 12:21 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by The Grand Nudger - February 29, 2016 at 11:34 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - March 1, 2016 at 5:02 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - March 8, 2016 at 12:06 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by robvalue - March 8, 2016 at 5:54 am
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by RoadRunner79 - March 13, 2016 at 6:40 pm
RE: Morality versus afterlife - by John V - March 10, 2016 at 7:28 am

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