RE: Theist zone
March 11, 2011 at 5:52 am
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2011 at 5:57 am by Captain Scarlet.)
1-Gravity is a poor qanalogy as we all experience it in the same way and it is independently verifiable and objectively true. Souls are not.
2- We do agree.
3- But the conceptual does not exist without the physical. The idea of for example the existence of 'thought of an apple', 'numbers' and 'logic' existing without material minds to instantiate them, or the frameworks in which they operate, is a bizarre concept that would need explanation. These are inventions of humanity and to ask if they exist within their frameworks (eg numbers in a math framework) is a trivial question where the answer is of course yes. But outside of those frameworks (invented by physical human minds) they do NOT exist in any sense. They have no independent instantiation within the universe.
4-People believed in gravity before they could measure it, because everyone experienced it in the same way. Not the case with 'immaterial' experience in all its forms. There are lots of subjective personal experiences, all of which cannot be true, but all of which can be false and subject to confirmation bias and wish thinking.
5- Equally interesting. Why would they not have the same opportunities as the human animal? How do the animals achieve their level of intelligence and personalities without souls?
6-Yes I did get it. But unfortunately souls are in the same category as aliens, crop circles, crystal healing etc for me. Obviously not for thee
7-Consider the water > wine miracle. The qunatity and quality of water, then subsequently wine was measurable from an apparent supernatural miracle. It would also have been possible to devise controls such that all possible natural means of making the miracle 'appear' were eliminated, or if attempted caught in the act. I would contend it is therefore possible to measure the impact of the supernatural, its just never been done; which is one of the reasons why its probably not true.
2- We do agree.
3- But the conceptual does not exist without the physical. The idea of for example the existence of 'thought of an apple', 'numbers' and 'logic' existing without material minds to instantiate them, or the frameworks in which they operate, is a bizarre concept that would need explanation. These are inventions of humanity and to ask if they exist within their frameworks (eg numbers in a math framework) is a trivial question where the answer is of course yes. But outside of those frameworks (invented by physical human minds) they do NOT exist in any sense. They have no independent instantiation within the universe.
4-People believed in gravity before they could measure it, because everyone experienced it in the same way. Not the case with 'immaterial' experience in all its forms. There are lots of subjective personal experiences, all of which cannot be true, but all of which can be false and subject to confirmation bias and wish thinking.
5- Equally interesting. Why would they not have the same opportunities as the human animal? How do the animals achieve their level of intelligence and personalities without souls?
6-Yes I did get it. But unfortunately souls are in the same category as aliens, crop circles, crystal healing etc for me. Obviously not for thee
7-Consider the water > wine miracle. The qunatity and quality of water, then subsequently wine was measurable from an apparent supernatural miracle. It would also have been possible to devise controls such that all possible natural means of making the miracle 'appear' were eliminated, or if attempted caught in the act. I would contend it is therefore possible to measure the impact of the supernatural, its just never been done; which is one of the reasons why its probably not true.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.
