RE: Classical Liberalism
April 8, 2011 at 3:32 am
(This post was last modified: April 8, 2011 at 3:42 am by theVOID.)
[quote='Aerzia Saerules Arktuos' pid='126617' dateline='1302241421']
[quote='theVOID' pid='126605' dateline='1302239977']
Bullshit, someone getting rich isn't necessarily to your detriment, it's not a zero sum game, someone being rich does NOT mean that they took it from someone else, you can get rich by creating wealth from sources of no or lesser value without the expense of someone else.[/quote]
Where does their money come from if not from us? I mean... we "make" money that all funnels into them. They literally cannot be rich without us funneling money into them. Ever tried to make a business that doesn't get money from anywhere? Riiight... do we really need to discuss the logistics of that?[/quote]
That's not what I said!
I said that someone getting Rich, accumulating wealth, is in no way necessarily at the expense of someone else, in the vast majority of circumstances the rich get rich and benefit those they trade with in the process.
Say someone invents a product, they need people to manufacture this product so they can sell their invention, they hire you to work assembling this device, they then sell the product to others, you get paid a wage and they take the rest. They have not taken anything from you, they have provided you with a means to exchange your time and skill for money and you have agreed, you benefit from it and so do they. Try tell me having a job isn't beneficial, if you dare be so absurd.
Suppose someone has a successful idea and good management skills and manages to make a great amount of money from it, at what point from the initial scenario to this one did they steal from or exploit you? None. They used the labor that workers were willing to trade for money and used it with their idea and management skills to sell goods and services at a profit - No crime done, nothing immoral, no detriment to you, no imposition of values - You have an entrepreneur who is getting wealthy, the motivation for his invention and risks, a worker who is getting the wage they agree to work for and customers who are getting the products they agree to trade for.
The more demand your skills are in, or the more money you will demand, you have to be worth more to more people to make more money, that's just the reality of it. As long as someone makes their wealth without using force, being fraudulent or neglecting their responsibilities to their employees and consumers, like paying what is agreed and treating them equally or providing products and services of the quality and function agreed upon, they can do whatever the fuck they like in my books, their productivity is not mine and I have no right to it and I have no right to impose my values or the government the "collective" values onto their transaction, as long as it is done within the boundaries of the personal freedoms of the individuals.
The government imposing values for causes, taking wealth by threat of imprisonment, is not something I support, it's group thuggery. We all have a tons of personal vales and group values, the government should all ensure these values aren't interfered with so long as that doesn't involve imposing on other values, not establish values at point of force in the name of the "common good" like giving taxpayer money to finance and automotive companies or forcing people to buy healthcare from a corporation.
[quote]Than the rich people who caused it to become our culture? Yes... so much more damaging indeed. Please keep in mind that it was rich people who founded this country. Our entire culture has been shaped by rich people.
[/quote]
That's because without entrepreneurs who have the ability to prosper nobody would have any motivation to build these products, the USA would be at best another backwards socialist nation. American workers have a decent quality of life, that's not despite the motivations for wealth, it's because of it.
Rich people did NOT cause you all to borrow and spend, they may have genuinely persuaded you to do something, or your flash bang media might have had a part in it, it helps them sell stuff, but it's ultimately your decisions and your faults, the rich are a scapegoat for people not wanting to admit their productivity just isn't that valuable or they didn't work hard enough for it or lucked out, Sorry... but that's not an excuse to steal from other people, rich or not, to account for it or to impose your values.
If someone does wrong lock them up, we need harsher sentences for all crimes.
[quote='reverendjeremiah' pid='126629' dateline='1302245404']
[quote= Reverend Jeremiah's Asshole ] Can I PLEASE tell him that you cant have Social equality without economic justice?! [/quote]
He will think you are a socialist asshole Asshole.[/quote]
We want quality in what sense? Equal treatment and opportunity or equal outcome?
[quote= Reverend Jeremiah's Asshole ] But what about back in the day when even matches were monopolised?
[quote]
Well, then he would have to pay big money to the plutocrats and watch the "free market" get stumped just to light one to clear the air of your breath you freaking a-hole.
[/quote]
Awww, you want cheap matches? Do you have some right to a particular material product? If I'm the only match game in town I can charge whatever I like, I have no obligation to give you matches for the price you want! - Lets ignore the fact that this price fixing is only the case in rare circumstances, even among "monopolies", Microsoft didn't charge ridiculous amounts for it's products nor did it prevent people from freely competing, it made a ton of money and provided a service that many were willing to pay. Prices will be determined by supply and demand. Nothing to stop you from creating a rival company and trying your luck.
[quote='theVOID' pid='126605' dateline='1302239977']
Bullshit, someone getting rich isn't necessarily to your detriment, it's not a zero sum game, someone being rich does NOT mean that they took it from someone else, you can get rich by creating wealth from sources of no or lesser value without the expense of someone else.[/quote]
Where does their money come from if not from us? I mean... we "make" money that all funnels into them. They literally cannot be rich without us funneling money into them. Ever tried to make a business that doesn't get money from anywhere? Riiight... do we really need to discuss the logistics of that?[/quote]
That's not what I said!
I said that someone getting Rich, accumulating wealth, is in no way necessarily at the expense of someone else, in the vast majority of circumstances the rich get rich and benefit those they trade with in the process.
Say someone invents a product, they need people to manufacture this product so they can sell their invention, they hire you to work assembling this device, they then sell the product to others, you get paid a wage and they take the rest. They have not taken anything from you, they have provided you with a means to exchange your time and skill for money and you have agreed, you benefit from it and so do they. Try tell me having a job isn't beneficial, if you dare be so absurd.
Suppose someone has a successful idea and good management skills and manages to make a great amount of money from it, at what point from the initial scenario to this one did they steal from or exploit you? None. They used the labor that workers were willing to trade for money and used it with their idea and management skills to sell goods and services at a profit - No crime done, nothing immoral, no detriment to you, no imposition of values - You have an entrepreneur who is getting wealthy, the motivation for his invention and risks, a worker who is getting the wage they agree to work for and customers who are getting the products they agree to trade for.
The more demand your skills are in, or the more money you will demand, you have to be worth more to more people to make more money, that's just the reality of it. As long as someone makes their wealth without using force, being fraudulent or neglecting their responsibilities to their employees and consumers, like paying what is agreed and treating them equally or providing products and services of the quality and function agreed upon, they can do whatever the fuck they like in my books, their productivity is not mine and I have no right to it and I have no right to impose my values or the government the "collective" values onto their transaction, as long as it is done within the boundaries of the personal freedoms of the individuals.
The government imposing values for causes, taking wealth by threat of imprisonment, is not something I support, it's group thuggery. We all have a tons of personal vales and group values, the government should all ensure these values aren't interfered with so long as that doesn't involve imposing on other values, not establish values at point of force in the name of the "common good" like giving taxpayer money to finance and automotive companies or forcing people to buy healthcare from a corporation.
[quote]Than the rich people who caused it to become our culture? Yes... so much more damaging indeed. Please keep in mind that it was rich people who founded this country. Our entire culture has been shaped by rich people.
[/quote]
That's because without entrepreneurs who have the ability to prosper nobody would have any motivation to build these products, the USA would be at best another backwards socialist nation. American workers have a decent quality of life, that's not despite the motivations for wealth, it's because of it.
Rich people did NOT cause you all to borrow and spend, they may have genuinely persuaded you to do something, or your flash bang media might have had a part in it, it helps them sell stuff, but it's ultimately your decisions and your faults, the rich are a scapegoat for people not wanting to admit their productivity just isn't that valuable or they didn't work hard enough for it or lucked out, Sorry... but that's not an excuse to steal from other people, rich or not, to account for it or to impose your values.
If someone does wrong lock them up, we need harsher sentences for all crimes.
[quote='reverendjeremiah' pid='126629' dateline='1302245404']
[quote= Reverend Jeremiah's Asshole ] Can I PLEASE tell him that you cant have Social equality without economic justice?! [/quote]
He will think you are a socialist asshole Asshole.[/quote]
We want quality in what sense? Equal treatment and opportunity or equal outcome?
[quote= Reverend Jeremiah's Asshole ] But what about back in the day when even matches were monopolised?
[quote]
Well, then he would have to pay big money to the plutocrats and watch the "free market" get stumped just to light one to clear the air of your breath you freaking a-hole.
[/quote]
Awww, you want cheap matches? Do you have some right to a particular material product? If I'm the only match game in town I can charge whatever I like, I have no obligation to give you matches for the price you want! - Lets ignore the fact that this price fixing is only the case in rare circumstances, even among "monopolies", Microsoft didn't charge ridiculous amounts for it's products nor did it prevent people from freely competing, it made a ton of money and provided a service that many were willing to pay. Prices will be determined by supply and demand. Nothing to stop you from creating a rival company and trying your luck.
.
