Free will

[Shadow_Man]

Alasdair Ham,

If determinism is true, libertarian free will cannot exist because libertarian free will implies by definition the ability to be able to have done otherwise. It would imply that someone could have done differently. Determinism by definition implies that no one and nothing can be different than one determined path. So determinism and libertarian free will are logically incompatible.

Ok. Let me see if I have this right.
Libertarian Free Will  = we could have done otherwise.
Determinism = prior causes produce one and only one possible outcome.
Right?

If indeterminism is true, libertarian free will cannot exist because indeterminsm means nothing and no one can be determined, which implies that no one can freely will or in other words determine their own behavior, which implies that there is no libertarian free will.

Here is where I am having a problem. If I have the definition of Determinism correct, then it would seem that the definition of Indeterminism would have to be -
Indeterminism = prior causes can produce any number of possible outcomes.

Therefore libertarian free will does not exist.

Which would seem to allow that we could have done otherwise, and that Libertarian Free Will can exist.

"Will"=Willpower. The dictionary can define that one, same for "free". "Free will" is a willpower that is free. A compatabilist believes that free will is compatible with determinism, but the only kind of will compatible with determinism is the will with the kind of freedom that no one doubts humans have -- just normal human willpower. The only "free" added to that beyond that could be libertarian free will, which is impossible as explained above. Without that it's just ordinary willpower. So compatabilists may call it "free will" but they're just talking about ordinary willpower and calling it "free". That is why I personally think it's silly.

When I speak of free will, I am speaking of our ability to make up our own minds and make our own choices within our ability to enact them. It includes the concept that we could have done otherwise. In your definitions, does that correspond to Libertarian Free Will, what you are calling Normal Human Willpower, or something else entirely?

Do you define Normal Human Willpower to allow that we could have done otherwise? If so, is there some other characteristic of Libertarian Free Will that sets it apart from Normal Human Willpower?

I am not aware of what Dyresand is or isn't doing.

I thought that perhapse you were reading the thread, noticed dyresand's appeal to authority, and confused the two of us. In retrospect, I should not have said anything about it. My bad.

I'm not accusing anyone of an irrelevant appeal to authority. My post was just a general statement of my opinions on the matter, it was not aimed at anyone in particular. I know you think and speak for yourself and I'm sorry that I made you feel otherwise. That was not the intention I had in mind at all. I wasn't even talking to you specifically. I was just posting my opinions.

You came up in an alert that said you had quoted me, so I assumed you were talking to me specifically. No problem.

I'm more than happy to not swear when talking to you, at least during this conversation ...

Thank you.

-- but don't expect me to remember anywhere outside this specific conversation.

I can barely remember who I am, let alone who other people are from thread to thread, so each thread being a world unto itself is fine with me.

Regards,
Shadow_Man