Classical Liberalism

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That's not what I said!

I said that someone getting Rich, accumulating wealth, is in no way necessarily at the expense of someone else, in the vast majority of circumstances the rich get rich and benefit those they trade with in the process.

How isn't it at the expense of someone else to have more than them? It absolutely necessarily is. It means that while I'm riding high up here on easy street: some other person here is starving for money that they otherwise might have if I did not have it.

Generally the rich become so by selling things at a grossly inflated price to the poor masses, making them poorer for things that they should have had in the first place for free (within reason).

Say someone invents a product, they need people to manufacture this product so they can sell their invention, they hire you to work assembling this device, they then sell the product to others, you get paid a wage and they take the rest. They have not taken anything from you, they have provided you with a means to exchange your time and skill for money and you have agreed, you benefit from it and so do they. Try tell me having a job isn't beneficial, if you dare be so absurd.

Having a job isn't beneficial. I'll dare to defend a rational position any day. Slavery is slavery whether it is hidden as 'wage' slavery or not. This absolute pittance that they have 'allowed' you to have is very likely barely enough for you to get by, plenty can't even afford an emergency fund.

They have taken from you a good third of your days to do menial tasks for them *just so that you can survive*. Not many of us happen to have skill to sell off, infact most markets are oversaturated to the point that even *college graduates* cannot find well paying jobs, and sometimes can't even find a job at all.

This entire capitalistic system that turns humans into cogs and gives them an illusion that they are being rewarded for working benefits none of the cogs: they will absolutely die if they do not take a job when they see it. What keeps those bottom scrapers from starving to death in america? Socialistic systems such as soup kitchens.

Is it really so absurd to you that people who try to buck slavery usually fail and sometimes die?

Suppose someone has a successful idea and good management skills and manages to make a great amount of money from it, at what point from the initial scenario to this one did they steal from or exploit you? None. They used the labor that workers were willing to trade for money and used it with their idea and management skills to sell goods and services at a profit - No crime done, nothing immoral, no detriment to you, no imposition of values - You have an entrepreneur who is getting wealthy, the motivation for his invention and risks, a worker who is getting the wage they agree to work for and customers who are getting the products they agree to trade for.

Willing to trade? Hahaha!

How about instead 'desperately accept to keep their family off the streets' or 'immediately take up before it's gone'? They are slaves to a system, what can you expect them to do when someone "offers" a job? It's not unlike throwing a starving dog a chicken nugget. The lion's share is held by the master of his castle, and all of his dogs are kept alive only because the master wants a gourmet party daily amongst his peers.

The crime that is done by this 'rich people hiring poor people' scheme is that the rich are robbing the poor blind and keeping them a shadow of life that to retain they *must* turn to the rich thieves. This entire system is based on fucking greed, how the hell can it get *less* moral? The detriment to the poor is phenomenal, across the entire board.

The more demand your skills are in, or the more money you will demand, you have to be worth more to more people to make more money, that's just the reality of it. As long as someone makes their wealth without using force, being fraudulent or neglecting their responsibilities to their employees and consumers, like paying what is agreed and treating them equally or providing products and services of the quality and function agreed upon, they can do whatever the fuck they like in my books, their productivity is not mine and I have no right to it and I have no right to impose my values or the government the "collective" values onto their transaction, as long as it is done within the boundaries of the personal freedoms of the individuals.

It is true: some cogs are special little cogs in that they aren't quite as common as the other cogs. But don't for a moment think that they are not replaceable, and easily at that. Doesn't matter if the replacement is slightly rough around the edges: It'll still get the bottom line done.

'As long as', you know that entire argument is based on having a powerful government capable of enforcing rules that it makes, do you not? What's to stop the rich from turning the masses into full-time serfs, the use of deadly force to silent an outspoken individual, not upholding their side of a contract as they use you and throw you away... if there is no powerful government to respond to such?

You are so beyond ridiculous when you think that slaves have appreciable 'personal freedoms'... what keeps the rich from increasing their profits even higher is that there is a government with a massive military capable of retaliating. Remove that, and america is gone like a rowboat in a midatlantic storm as surely as elephants from poaching.

The government imposing values for causes, taking wealth by threat of imprisonment, is not something I support, it's group thuggery. We all have a tons of personal vales and group values, the government should all ensure these values aren't interfered with so long as that doesn't involve imposing on other values, not establish values at point of force in the name of the "common good" like giving taxpayer money to finance and automotive companies or forcing people to buy healthcare from a corporation.

On the other hand, I agree with the government curing the national debt by ripping almost everything from the rich. Don't agree with keeping poor businesses around when it is quite capable of splitting the money it used to keep them afloat into those who had trusted it in the bank in the first place.

But then, I'm somewhat pragmatic. I see resource, I take resource. It really is the path of least resistance. Unfortunately, our government is the puppet of the rich people it should be gutting.

That's because without entrepreneurs who have the ability to prosper nobody would have any motivation to build these products, the USA would be at best another backwards socialist nation. American workers have a decent quality of life, that's not despite the motivations for wealth, it's because of it.

Nobody needs to prosper into the hundreds of millions. And we have multibillion corporations. There is plenty of a motivation to increase the power of the greater machine and to be rewarded for it by a reputation and a greater allowance. Only greedy self-centered people build things for other people solely for themselves. I would rather not have any of those people in a community than embrace their greed.

American workers have a decent quality of life? Maybe by your low standards, but I'm hard to impress. Now *I* have a decent quality of life. More than I deserve, frankly. And most americans do not live so easily as I. I was born in a fairly rich environment, I know people, and I've had a well paying job all my life that takes but an 10th of my life. What I see of fellow americans in this area is that many of them bring home either minimum wage or something I consider to be barely past that. I know so many poor people here that I am absolutely aghast of it. Perhaps I'm biased and the area in which i live is just super poor. Somehow, i doubt it is any better for many people living in hundreds of times more crowded places

Rich people did NOT cause you all to borrow and spend, they may have genuinely persuaded you to do something, or your flash bang media might have had a part in it, it helps them sell stuff, but it's ultimately your decisions and your faults, the rich are a scapegoat for people not wanting to admit their productivity just isn't that valuable or they didn't work hard enough for it or lucked out, Sorry... but that's not an excuse to steal from other people, rich or not, to account for it or to impose your values.

If someone does wrong lock them up, we need harsher sentences for all crimes.

Hmmm... did you know that I didn't borrow anything at all from anyone? I spend plenty, sure, but I almost never let myself drop into a deficit. I have spent slightly more than i made last year, granted... but luckily most of what I bought is electronic things that are staying with me. I won't be making a similar array of purchases next year (I wont even have an Xbox 360 or PS3 to spend money on).

Agree with the last sentence here. American adult daycare is more of a reward than anything as I see it.

Anyway, more to the point: i very highly doubt that the investments made by all of the poor people in the banks comes even close to those made by the rich.

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