IATIA,
So then God's foreknowledge is irrelevant. Correct?
So, having said it so slowly, do you see your logical error now? I thought not.
You see, simple repetition doesn't bring enlightenment, or make your statement true. Insults don't, either. Try a new perspective, or a new analogy. I know it is frustrating when someone fails to see what appears to you to be totally logical. I feel the same frustration. If you can't continue the discussion without resorting to insult, then just withdraw from the discussion. If you have nothing new to add, then just say so. Trading insults produces nothing but bad blood. You should have learned that by now.
Let's try a different tack.
You say that if God has foreknowledge then you are the past. Was there ever a time when what you are thinking and doing right now was actually you thinking and doing things in the present? In other words, if you are the recording, was there ever a you that was being recorded? If so, was the you that was being recorded operating with free will? If so, then you are a recording of free will in action. Are you an exact recording, in every detail? If so, then the pertinent detail is your free will, which has been retained intact, because that is the nature of recordings. So, if a recording can in any way be seen to actually exist at all, then you retain all characteristics of the you that was recorded, including free will. God knows exactly what you will do, and that you will do it entirely of your own free will, just as you did when you actually did it in the present that was recorded.
The other option is that you don't exist at all. The only you that ever existed had free will and enacted that free will during the course of your life in the true present, whenever in the time line that happened to be.
Certainly. Does what follows directly address what you think was so inherently illogical about those statements? If not, please say it plainly and address it more directly. Otherwise, see below.
That is an unsupported assertion.
If I knew you well enough, I could undoubtedly "push your buttons." Your entirely predictable reaction would not be an example of me robbing you of your free will, but rather an exact expression of your free will in the matter. Free will only demands that you "can" do otherwise, not that you "will." Free will only demands that you think your own thoughts and make your own choices within your ability to enact them. It does not demand that your thoughts be so mysterious that they cannot be known.
The observed nature of our free will is that it is not at all random. Quite to the contrary, it is thoughtful and purposeful. That was my point. You seem to be saying that there are only two things in operation in the universe - specific determinism or randomness. I am saying that there is at least a third thing - human cognition and the free will it engenders. The observed nature of our free will is that it is neither specifically determined nor random.
I believe that your statement is incorrect, but more importantly I do not see the relevance. Please explain what touching the universe has to do with free will.
Regards,
Shadow_Man
IATIA Wrote:Robots.
So then God's foreknowledge is irrelevant. Correct?
IATIA Wrote:L e t - m e - t r y - t h i s - r e a l - s l o w. T o - s e e - i n t o - t h e - f u t u r e - r e q u i r e s - t h e - f u t u r e - t o - e x i s t. I f - t h e - f u t u r e - e x i s t s, - t h e n - w e - a r e - i n - t h e - p a s t - a n d - e v e r y - d e c i s i o n - t h a t - w e - w i l l - e v e r - m a k e - h a s - a l r e a d y - h a p p e n e d - a n d - w e - h a v e - n o - c h o i c e - b u t - t o - f o l l o w - t h e - p r o g r a m - t h a t - h a s - a l r e a d y - h a p p e n e d.
So, having said it so slowly, do you see your logical error now? I thought not.
You see, simple repetition doesn't bring enlightenment, or make your statement true. Insults don't, either. Try a new perspective, or a new analogy. I know it is frustrating when someone fails to see what appears to you to be totally logical. I feel the same frustration. If you can't continue the discussion without resorting to insult, then just withdraw from the discussion. If you have nothing new to add, then just say so. Trading insults produces nothing but bad blood. You should have learned that by now.
Let's try a different tack.
You say that if God has foreknowledge then you are the past. Was there ever a time when what you are thinking and doing right now was actually you thinking and doing things in the present? In other words, if you are the recording, was there ever a you that was being recorded? If so, was the you that was being recorded operating with free will? If so, then you are a recording of free will in action. Are you an exact recording, in every detail? If so, then the pertinent detail is your free will, which has been retained intact, because that is the nature of recordings. So, if a recording can in any way be seen to actually exist at all, then you retain all characteristics of the you that was recorded, including free will. God knows exactly what you will do, and that you will do it entirely of your own free will, just as you did when you actually did it in the present that was recorded.
The other option is that you don't exist at all. The only you that ever existed had free will and enacted that free will during the course of your life in the true present, whenever in the time line that happened to be.
Shadow_Man Wrote:IATIA Wrote:No. Free will does not by definition force a random variable into the universe. Randomness is not freedom. Will is not random. A robot has no will at all. A robot with a random number generator in its controller is still a robot. It has not suddenly gained free will.Did you actually read what you just wrote?
Certainly. Does what follows directly address what you think was so inherently illogical about those statements? If not, please say it plainly and address it more directly. Otherwise, see below.
IATIA Wrote:Free will is unpredictable.
That is an unsupported assertion.
If I knew you well enough, I could undoubtedly "push your buttons." Your entirely predictable reaction would not be an example of me robbing you of your free will, but rather an exact expression of your free will in the matter. Free will only demands that you "can" do otherwise, not that you "will." Free will only demands that you think your own thoughts and make your own choices within your ability to enact them. It does not demand that your thoughts be so mysterious that they cannot be known.
IATIA Wrote:There are two red glasses before you on the table. Both are exactly the same. Which one will you pick? The choice is 50/50. There is no way to determine which you will pick (under a free will scenario).That is a random variable.
The observed nature of our free will is that it is not at all random. Quite to the contrary, it is thoughtful and purposeful. That was my point. You seem to be saying that there are only two things in operation in the universe - specific determinism or randomness. I am saying that there is at least a third thing - human cognition and the free will it engenders. The observed nature of our free will is that it is neither specifically determined nor random.
IATIA Wrote:Whether you pick the one on the left or the one on the right will change the air currents, photon paths, gravitational field, etc. and that change will continue on for the life of the universe.From the perspective of the universe, eventually every part of the universe will be touched by your choice.
I believe that your statement is incorrect, but more importantly I do not see the relevance. Please explain what touching the universe has to do with free will.
Regards,
Shadow_Man
