Problems understanding naturalistically the beginning of the universe

[robvalue]

I have no idea about that either. No one has given me a sensible definition. They usually try and default to dictionary definitions, which involve what people know. So something can be un/supernatural to one person and not to another. Fucking ludicrous.

When they're embarrassed to say "magic", which is what they really mean, it gets painful. But magic is equally poorly defined anyway.