Classical Liberalism

[reverendjeremiah]

Alright. I think I see the problem we are having with this discussion. You are talking libertarians "in general", where I am talking about libertarians "in America". The vast majority of those who claimed they are libertarian that I have met have openly bragged about how they have voted for Palin (not McCain), and how they dont waste their vote on people in their own party. Many of them are very vocal about how, even though they like social libertarianism, they do not see it taking effect in America.. so they focus on the economic libertarianism. They vote their economic side every time.

So obviously you are posting from ideological purity, I am posting on what I have seen and heard from most American Libertarians. I have also posted several times that it is not the social libertarianism that I oppose, but it economic aspects, and that its economic aspects I was trying to focus on discussion. They do not focus on the social aspects, and dont even try. I have seen American Libertarians fool people by talking about the pure ideology, lose the election, then switch their ticket to "conservative Republican" and win. Many local's do that in the southern states. some of the republicans and even some of the Democrats talk the "Libertarian crap" (as I have come to call it..and this is what Min is talking about as well..he has seen it just as much, I am sure). We dont find "true" libertarians around here in America. As I have said MANY times before, their economic beliefs eclipse their social beliefs. Even Reagan said we cant take in the entirety of the Libertarian party, as they are not socially moral. THAT rings very true within the American libertarian ranks.

Now coming from your end, I can see where some, or most of what I have posted sounds absolutely wrong, or at least half assed wrong. Its missing something. Its missing the anti-authoritarianism. I know this. I am posting about AMERICAN LIBERTARIANS. Go back and read my posts again, but this time instead of thinking "pure libertarian ideology" you should think in "turbulent and divided American Politics". If you use the second as opposed to the first, the posts I made will make MUCH MORE SENSE. In America, the Libertarians have added to the mess. In America, we have 3 types of political groups, and a minority fourth.


#1 - We have the massive American moderates group. They are moderate on the authoritarian right, that is. These people are socially and fiscally moderate inside of the authoritarian right (upper right block). I would say they are somewhere between Obama and Palin on that grid you posted, probably even dead center of that upper right hand block. The mass majority of Americans want to be an authority on everything. This group swings back and forth between Republican and Democrat, and sometimes on a drop of the hat. This is the group that decides elections both small and large.
#2 - We have the American right wing (better known as "neo-con", they want big government only socially, not economically). In the name of "small government" they want every aspect of social life monitored, enforced, and punished by the government, and they feel that should be the ONLY roll that government fulfills. Government should stay COMPLETELY out of economics and business. (you can see the libertarian economic appeal here)
#3 - We have the American left. (They want big government socially and economically). They want social aspects of life protected by the government, to ensure the government punishes those who tread on peoples social freedoms. They want the government to control the economy as well. Libertarians in America hate Democrats. I have yet to see a Libertarian say anything nice about the Democratic party.
#4 - A substantial Libertarian minority. They dont have enough votes to get their politicians into power, but they do have enough of a voting block to enfluence an election. The party that can influence the Libertarians, does not have to worry as much about the picky moderates. Republican party decides to rename itself "teaparty", appeals to the libertarians, and takes power in the last election. They then switch back to neo-con politics as soon as they step into office. Libertarians dont complain much, because at least they have people who are economically libertarian in office. American Libertarians dont focus on the social aspects of the ideology much here in America because they know that the majority of Americans will walk away when they bring it up.

So..who do the Libertarians vote for? They vote #2 and #4...most of them dont waste their vote on their own party and just vote #2.

Does that make more sense to you now? Do my last posts make more sense to you now in light of this post? OF COURSE THEY ARENT PURE LIBERTARIANS that I talk about in my last posts, and I say this quite a bit. They are ECONOMIC LIBERTARIANS.

After readin this post, go back and read my posts again, and every where I say "Libertarian" , replace it with "American Libertarian". American Libertarians dont even try to mess with their socila aspects because they know most Americans want to tell people how to live and what to believe. They know they will automatically lose. So they ONLY focus on the ECONOMIC aspects, which tend to be much more popular in America.

I dont know how it is in your country, but this is how it is in mine.

You never seem to Equate "democrat" or "liberal" with corporatist even though almost every motherfucker in the democratic party is EXACTLY that, and MANY of them claim to be progressives or liberals and "still push the social stuff".

Oh yeah, Democrats and liberals are corporatists as well. Hillary Clinton claims to be a progressive, and so does Obama..neither are. The problem is, they ARENT pushing the social stuff, because, like I have said before, if you are not socially conservative in America, you are not going to go anywhere politically.

...but I thought we were talking about classical liberals..not modern liberals.

So, yeah, in the end you are absolutely correct. The American teaparty is NOT libertarian like PURE libertarianism.

American Libertarians vote for teaparty politicians on a majority here in America, and I just explained WHY.