(May 11, 2016 at 11:23 am)Time Traveler Wrote:(May 11, 2016 at 10:28 am)SteveII Wrote: So, say in another identical universe, there were no minds to contemplate such things. Would that mean that the concept of 8 objects does not exist? Does that mean that E=MC^2 still does not have a mathematical relationship? Does that mean that the idea of P then Q; P therefore Q would not have meaning? Words just represent concepts.
Your problem, Steve, is in imagining an "identical universe." Instead, imagine an Alice in Wonderland universe on LSD cranked up to 11. In that universe, the concept of 8 objects would have no meaning, because every grouping would be an ever-changing collection of random objects. Energy=Mass*Speed of Light^2 would be replaced by Penguins=Purple*Toothpicks, changing instantly to Vodka=Cellphones/Ant Farts, and so on. The concept of P then Q; P therefore Q wouldn't hold in such a crazy universe consisting only of nonsensical random fluctuations.
Therefore, it is only because of the natural observational consistencies within a universe like ours that logic and math hold any meaning and can describe and model these concepts inside our human brains. These concepts are not at all "transcendent" as some theists would have it, but very much dependent upon the empirical properties of the type of universe we find ourselves in. However, even within our universe, we have spacetime distortions, quantum uncertainties, superpositions and entanglements, dark matter, dark energy, etc., which we cannot fully explain given our current logical or mathematical tools - actual attributes of this universe which seem almost as bizarre as the one we might imagine on the other side of the looking glass.
That second hypothetical universe sounds AWESOME. Toothpicks turning into vodka? Count me IN!
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
Wiser words were never spoken.
