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Free will
RE: Free will
(May 22, 2016 at 3:39 pm)Ignorant Wrote:
(May 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm)dyresand Wrote: Then we have no freewill a all knowing god violates free will since said being has foreknowledge and created the scenario we are in right now.
The "free will" you and me would be experiencing right now would be an illusion of free will.The "free will" you and me would be experiencing right now would be an illusion of free will.

Well, I can understand why you might think that, but I am inviting you to consider a more detailed understanding of freedom as well as the relationship between a God who creates and the creation itself. I fully understand that you are not convinced that such a god even exists, so please try to understand that I am happy to speak of god only in a hypothetical manner.

Have you considered the possibility that you are conflating metaphysical necessity with determination?

Okay for one do not use metaphysics.. just don't  because it is a crock of shit now that is done. 
Your god having knowledge or should say being all knowing violates our free will. He/She/It creates the scenario we are in right now 
and has planed out everything down to possible actions we take. That being said is all powerful can give us the illusion that we have free
will but we don't and our actions themselves are predeterministic like this conversation we are having now. If god was simply limited in knowledge
then sure free will can exist a all knowing being cannot allow for free will to exist as it would be a paradox of information. 

The problem is the omniscient paradox you cannot have free will if a all powerful being and all knowing being existed. Because even then it's not really my 
or anyone else's fault we are atheists we are atheists because it was planned like that. Then it becomes a really big moral issue for followers like so 
a person goes around killing people his/her life was already predetermined by a all knowing being for that to happen. So then who is at fault the creator or 
the creation that is the big moral issue when it comes down to it. Blame the creator or blame the creation the person had to choice they were forced to do 
actions that were predetermined from the time they were born to the time they die. Even if you do bring up the metaphysical argument there is still that glaring
fact of the omniscience paradox to deal with.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today. 


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Messages In This Thread
Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 10:55 am
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 11:17 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 1, 2016 at 7:53 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 1, 2016 at 9:22 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 1, 2016 at 9:52 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 4, 2016 at 8:05 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 8, 2016 at 6:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 8, 2016 at 7:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 12, 2016 at 6:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 12, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - March 26, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 27, 2016 at 3:24 am
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - March 26, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:36 am
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 1:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Excited Penguin - March 26, 2016 at 1:51 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 2:40 pm
RE: Free will - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 26, 2016 at 3:01 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 7:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 8:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 1, 2016 at 10:30 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 1, 2016 at 11:11 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 11:41 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: Free will - by JuliaL - April 2, 2016 at 12:08 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 12:28 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 1:55 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:16 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:33 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:49 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:59 am
RE: Free will - by Wyrd of Gawd - April 2, 2016 at 3:12 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 1:45 am
RE: Free will - by Silver - April 2, 2016 at 3:00 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2016 at 3:43 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 9:37 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 5:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 3, 2016 at 12:24 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 3, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Drich - April 4, 2016 at 8:31 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 4, 2016 at 8:14 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:41 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 4, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Rhondazvous - April 8, 2016 at 7:51 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 16, 2016 at 2:13 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 16, 2016 at 3:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 21, 2016 at 6:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - April 17, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 22, 2016 at 7:21 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 22, 2016 at 7:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 24, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 25, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 9:36 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 27, 2016 at 11:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 29, 2016 at 6:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 29, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 6, 2016 at 8:35 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 12:04 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 11, 2016 at 6:33 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 13, 2016 at 7:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 25, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 30, 2016 at 8:56 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 30, 2016 at 11:45 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 7, 2016 at 8:20 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 9:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 7, 2016 at 9:56 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:52 pm
RE: Free will - by chrisdubbya - May 11, 2016 at 8:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 11, 2016 at 11:03 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - May 12, 2016 at 4:13 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 22, 2016 at 7:28 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 7:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 5, 2016 at 6:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 9:17 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 6:46 pm
RE: Free will - by RozKek - April 29, 2016 at 7:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 29, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Mudhammam - May 5, 2016 at 11:30 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 6, 2016 at 9:30 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 7, 2016 at 12:43 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 10, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 12, 2016 at 7:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 11, 2016 at 9:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 12, 2016 at 7:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 14, 2016 at 3:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 13, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 18, 2016 at 7:12 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 18, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 14, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 21, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 14, 2016 at 4:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 3:21 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 4:51 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 11:19 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:26 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 3:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 5:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 11:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 11:33 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 4:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 8:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 5:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 10:20 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 24, 2016 at 1:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Silver - May 24, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:25 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:02 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 23, 2016 at 9:19 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 1:37 am
RE: Free will - by Spinchance - May 25, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 7:28 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 1:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 3:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:51 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 25, 2016 at 6:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:15 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 26, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:33 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 29, 2016 at 12:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:47 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 25, 2016 at 3:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 6:38 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:26 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:39 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:52 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:32 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 28, 2016 at 7:06 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:40 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dom.donald - May 26, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 11:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 4:49 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:21 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:34 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:48 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:17 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:27 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 9:43 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 11:47 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:15 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 4:41 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - May 27, 2016 at 10:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 10:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 12:19 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 28, 2016 at 12:26 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 11:55 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 2, 2016 at 7:50 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:53 am
RE: Free will - by Silver - June 2, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Silver - June 2, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 9, 2016 at 5:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 10, 2016 at 4:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:23 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 9, 2016 at 7:02 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 6:17 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 10, 2016 at 1:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 5:00 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 1:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 2:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 2:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Harassed - June 10, 2016 at 5:16 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - June 10, 2016 at 10:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:27 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 7:57 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 23, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 12, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 8:34 am
RE: Free will - by SofaKingHigh - June 14, 2016 at 8:41 am
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 10:02 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 14, 2016 at 3:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 6:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 8:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Silver - June 16, 2016 at 12:44 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:38 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by h4ym4n - June 16, 2016 at 1:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 1:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 1:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:24 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:39 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:05 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:22 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:12 pm
RE: Free will - by madog - June 16, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:57 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:19 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:33 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:46 pm
RE: Free will - by bennyboy - June 16, 2016 at 6:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 23, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 26, 2016 at 2:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ayen - June 25, 2016 at 8:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 26, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:44 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:49 pm

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