(May 24, 2016 at 6:20 pm)Ignorant Wrote:(May 24, 2016 at 1:10 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: You neglect the case wherein the fruit tree depends on something that is not itself contingent.
I hope I have not neglected it, because god, as at least one non-contingent condition for fruit-making, would be a pretty embarrassing thing to forget! =)
I'm not sure I have neglected the principle:
"Even if everything in the universe happens without conditions (i.e. if the universe is necessary) save the 6 contingencies of a 6-sided die roll, then the universe necessarily causes exactly 6 contingencies. It isn't all or nothing." - Me
Quote: In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily.
The fact that there are two possibilities should make us suspicious of an equivocation of "necessarily" here.
In other words, if one of the fruit-making conditions is itself non-contingent, then fruit-making still depends on the non-contingent thing. Things which occur necessarily do not have a real alternative. If there is any condition at all for fruit-making, necessary or otherwise, then the fruit-making is still contingent upon that condition's obtaining.
In short, a non-contingent condition is still a condition, and an action depending on fulfilled conditions is still contingent. Now, can that non-contingent condition ever not-be-fulfilled? No.
Most important point:
If the non-contingent condition were the only condition for fruit-making, and that condition were present, then the tree could not NOT make fruit, it is true. But the tree's fruit making is STILL contingent upon the non-contingent thing... so the fruit-making will absolutely happen, and it will absolutely happen CONTINGENTLY.
Here is my rewording of your own formula above :
You - "In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily."
Me - "In this case, it doesn't NOT make, or doesn't make fruit contingently."
Scenario - Okay god makes the garden of eden tells two jerk offs named adam and eve they eat everything just not from this tree.
So premise god is all knowing he already knows whats going to happen they eat tree anyway. Humanity is forever cursed with original sin.
The fruit in their case if those two people existed it would be the case of necessity not contingently. They ate from a tree because a talking snaked talked them into it.
This was before they had any free will they take orders from anything that could talk. Then even then what's the point there is no point if free will was a gift that gift is cursed
and that gift is contingently unnecessary. What's the point of knowing everything knowing every single outcome and giving humans the illusion of free will... there is no point other than were just some pawns to said being were just toys to it and nothing more. I mean why else would the bible say he is all good while at the same time god has shown himself to be a monster worse than the devil. And the devil mind you doesn't even seem all that bad really considering how much humans has he killed compared to god by the way.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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