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Free will
RE: Free will
(May 26, 2016 at 7:26 am)Rhythm Wrote:
(May 26, 2016 at 7:04 am)Ignorant Wrote: Great to get your thoughts, rob.

Right, I am aware the word has been used in this way. This isn't exactly wrong either, but it does ignore something important about the term "determine". A determination is certainly the outcome of a choice, but if it is the [i]outcome
 of a choice, then choice occurred. If an all-knowing god has a choice of outcomes, then there are more than one possible outcomes. Hence, my desire to properly and helpfully distinguish it from necessity.
[/i]
Choices? We're talking free will aren't we?  Similarly, it doesn't matter how many possible outcomes there are, a true claim to foreknowledge precludes -all- but the one to which it refers by necessity of the truth of the claim.  That the road forks in front of me, does not demonstrate that I choose, let alone freely will - anything-.   If x knows, prior to my choice, prior even to my birth, that I will go left..then my meeting that fork can only end in one outcome.  I will go left.  There is no freedom here, to go right.  There is a simply a road that goes right.

Quote:This claim is true, but it uses "necessary" equivocally. Here is why:

Consider some thing (T) (e.g. a fruit tree) doing some action (A) (e.g. making fruit) which depends on the conditions X, Y, Z.

We can say:
     If  all X, Y and Z, then T necessarily does A.


Now consider some thing (T) (e.g. a fruit tree) doing some action (A) (e.g. making fruit) unconditionally.

There may be no "if" in a true claim to foreknowledge (fatalism, absurdism, etc) - and in case of a true claim to foreknowledge and it;s relationship to free will, the "if" is irrelevant.  No "if he freely wills a, then a".  Only, "he will freely will a".

I heavily edited the original version, you might take a look at it first, and tell me if you would like a response to these thoughts anyway.
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Messages In This Thread
Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 10:55 am
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 11:17 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 1, 2016 at 7:53 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 1, 2016 at 9:22 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 1, 2016 at 9:52 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 4, 2016 at 8:05 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 8, 2016 at 6:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 8, 2016 at 7:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 12, 2016 at 6:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 12, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - March 26, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 27, 2016 at 3:24 am
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - March 26, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - March 26, 2016 at 11:36 am
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 1:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Excited Penguin - March 26, 2016 at 1:51 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - March 26, 2016 at 2:40 pm
RE: Free will - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 26, 2016 at 3:01 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - March 26, 2016 at 7:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 8:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 1, 2016 at 10:30 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 1, 2016 at 11:11 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2016 at 11:41 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 10:07 am
RE: Free will - by JuliaL - April 2, 2016 at 12:08 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 12:28 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 1:55 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:16 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:33 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 2, 2016 at 2:49 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 2, 2016 at 2:59 am
RE: Free will - by Wyrd of Gawd - April 2, 2016 at 3:12 am
RE: Free will - by Little lunch - April 2, 2016 at 1:45 am
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - April 2, 2016 at 3:00 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2016 at 3:43 pm
RE: Free will - by ErGingerbreadMandude - April 2, 2016 at 9:37 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 5:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: Free will - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Jehanne - April 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 3, 2016 at 12:24 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 3, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Drich - April 4, 2016 at 8:31 am
RE: Free will - by scoobysnack - April 4, 2016 at 8:14 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 7, 2016 at 7:41 pm
RE: Free will - by brewer - April 4, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Rhondazvous - April 8, 2016 at 7:51 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 16, 2016 at 2:13 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - April 16, 2016 at 3:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 21, 2016 at 6:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Ryantology - April 17, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 22, 2016 at 7:21 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 22, 2016 at 7:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 24, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 25, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 9:36 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 27, 2016 at 11:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 29, 2016 at 6:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - April 29, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 6, 2016 at 8:35 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 12:04 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 11, 2016 at 6:33 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:38 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 13, 2016 at 7:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 25, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 30, 2016 at 8:56 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - April 30, 2016 at 11:45 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 7, 2016 at 8:20 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 7, 2016 at 9:07 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 7, 2016 at 9:56 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 7:52 pm
RE: Free will - by chrisdubbya - May 11, 2016 at 8:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 11, 2016 at 11:03 pm
RE: Free will - by robvalue - May 12, 2016 at 4:13 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 22, 2016 at 7:28 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - April 26, 2016 at 7:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 5, 2016 at 6:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 26, 2016 at 9:17 pm
RE: Free will - by ApeNotKillApe - April 26, 2016 at 9:48 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 6:46 pm
RE: Free will - by RozKek - April 29, 2016 at 7:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Aroura - April 29, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - April 29, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Mudhammam - May 5, 2016 at 11:30 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 6, 2016 at 9:30 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 7, 2016 at 12:43 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 10, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 12, 2016 at 7:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 11, 2016 at 9:09 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 11, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 12, 2016 at 7:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 14, 2016 at 3:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 13, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 18, 2016 at 7:12 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 18, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 14, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 21, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 14, 2016 at 4:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 3:21 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 4:51 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 21, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 5:58 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2016 at 6:45 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 11:19 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:26 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 3:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 22, 2016 at 5:05 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 11:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 11:33 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 12:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 4:38 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 23, 2016 at 8:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 5:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 10:20 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:43 pm
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 24, 2016 at 1:10 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 24, 2016 at 6:58 pm
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - May 24, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 22, 2016 at 12:25 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 22, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 23, 2016 at 5:02 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 23, 2016 at 9:19 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 24, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 1:37 am
RE: Free will - by Spinchance - May 25, 2016 at 5:08 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 7:28 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 1:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 25, 2016 at 3:36 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 3:51 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 25, 2016 at 6:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:15 am
RE: Free will - by IATIA - May 26, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 3:33 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 29, 2016 at 12:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 3:47 am
RE: Free will - by Angrboda - May 25, 2016 at 3:55 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 25, 2016 at 4:25 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 25, 2016 at 6:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 6:38 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:26 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 7:39 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 7:52 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:32 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - May 28, 2016 at 7:06 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 4:40 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 26, 2016 at 5:39 pm
RE: Free will - by dom.donald - May 26, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 26, 2016 at 11:17 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:13 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 4:49 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:21 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:34 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 7:48 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 8:17 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 8:27 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 9:43 am
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 11:47 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - May 27, 2016 at 2:15 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 4:41 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - May 27, 2016 at 10:35 pm
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 27, 2016 at 10:44 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 12:19 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - May 28, 2016 at 12:26 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - May 28, 2016 at 11:55 am
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 2, 2016 at 7:50 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:53 am
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - June 2, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - June 2, 2016 at 8:17 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 9, 2016 at 5:45 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 10, 2016 at 4:16 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:23 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 9, 2016 at 7:02 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 6:17 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 10, 2016 at 1:04 pm
RE: Free will - by Ignorant - June 10, 2016 at 5:00 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 1:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 2:08 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 10, 2016 at 2:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 10, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by Harassed - June 10, 2016 at 5:16 pm
Free will - by dom.donald - June 10, 2016 at 10:15 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 15, 2016 at 6:27 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 7:57 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 23, 2016 at 7:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 12, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 8:34 am
RE: Free will - by SofaKingHigh - June 14, 2016 at 8:41 am
RE: Free will - by John V - June 14, 2016 at 10:02 am
RE: Free will - by dyresand - June 14, 2016 at 3:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 6:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 7:59 pm
RE: Free will - by IATIA - June 15, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2016 at 8:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Foxaèr - June 16, 2016 at 12:44 am
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 12:38 am
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:21 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 12:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Free will - by h4ym4n - June 16, 2016 at 1:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:37 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 1:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 1:53 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 1:56 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:03 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:09 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:14 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:19 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:24 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 2:31 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 2:39 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:05 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:06 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:22 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:12 pm
RE: Free will - by madog - June 16, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:32 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 3:40 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 3:57 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:01 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:10 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:11 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:20 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:19 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Free will - by Thomas Kelly252525 - June 16, 2016 at 4:29 pm
RE: Free will - by Spirian - June 16, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 4:26 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:27 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2016 at 4:33 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 4:46 pm
RE: Free will - by bennyboy - June 16, 2016 at 6:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Losty - June 16, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 16, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 23, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: Free will - by Shadow_Man - June 26, 2016 at 2:35 pm
RE: Free will - by Ayen - June 25, 2016 at 8:49 pm
RE: Free will - by Edwardo Piet - June 26, 2016 at 2:37 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:44 pm
RE: Free will - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2016 at 2:49 pm

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