Peace....
So are you suggesting that the message of Hitchens and Dawkins cannot be adopted by the uneducated and Poor? is the proposition so far fetched to you that it would require magic? This thread began with the request that we consider the consequences of others accepting the view without the education. Once again this seems difficult for you to grasp since I would imagine the idea of uneducated people accepting atheism seems magical.
No...I choose empowering the poor and uneducated. However that would be truly magical considering that the money would have to come from somewhere and the United States is facing an imminent Civil War due to the priviledged classes stance against being forced to help with the cost of ensuring that poor people can do things like go to the hospital and put food on the table . How do you think a Bill proposing universal education would go over?
I have already stated very clearly that every atheist I have known personally behaved morally consistent with the norms of the culture.
Behaviour which is considered morally correct is very much relative to the Ethos of the civilization or social condition of the time and locale. Groups don't tend to break down into clusters of law abiding and criminal neatly along religious lines. They break down consistent with other factors like income, education and class. If the morality of atheists in some biological imperative you would find a consistent atheist morality extending unaltered throughout time and geographic location. A chinese atheist of 3rd century BCE should espouse the same moral stance as a Bengali of the 20th century and both should be consistent with an atheist living in New York today.
Well there aren't enough jobs for everyone even if they were educated and there are still the other isms to deal with.......However, lets say that everyone was Free, received the same Justice as their neighbor, had adequate resources , and had Equal opportunity and education...yeah..You wouldn't need Religion at all..I think the Great Morgan Freeman/Gandalf/Dumbledore/ Sky Daddy would be happy with that.
No, I agree. But the fact that the problem is under the rug is not a mistake...Religion which proposes that man must live subservient to the unjust and await a reward for suffering which will not arrive until the afterlife is in fact an Opiate for the masses. But this indictment of religion should in no way be a sweeping indictment of all spiritual systems. There are spiritual systems which do not purpose to have people wait until after death for reward or to behave properly for financing the Condo in Heaven thing....
Now perhaps someone would like to propose how we go about educating everyone without starting a war...
Whirling Moat
Quote:My point is still that the same. Those that are able to break free from the theistic beliefs they were born into, are generally the more independent thinkers within society. Those that have the capacity to think on that level, are generally not the violent criminals. You choose to ignore this and want us to comment on some hypothetical scenario where the generally uneducated magically take on the viewpoint of the generally educated and then come up with some hypothetical outcome which is influenced by your predetermined view that atheists have no morals. That, of course, is ridiculous.
So are you suggesting that the message of Hitchens and Dawkins cannot be adopted by the uneducated and Poor? is the proposition so far fetched to you that it would require magic? This thread began with the request that we consider the consequences of others accepting the view without the education. Once again this seems difficult for you to grasp since I would imagine the idea of uneducated people accepting atheism seems magical.
Quote:Once again education here is the key. It seems that rather than try to help the poor you want to give them religion to comfort them. As you have said, if we educate them they could be moral atheists, and they would no longer have to be poor.
No...I choose empowering the poor and uneducated. However that would be truly magical considering that the money would have to come from somewhere and the United States is facing an imminent Civil War due to the priviledged classes stance against being forced to help with the cost of ensuring that poor people can do things like go to the hospital and put food on the table . How do you think a Bill proposing universal education would go over?
Quote:Morals are cultural yes, but theists often assume that they must stem from religion. I don't know if it's because you can't see anyone having morals without religion or what your rationalization for this is. The fact is that religion and morals are mutually exclusive. Having morals does not mean you're religious or that they came from the religious. Being religious does not mean you have morals
I have already stated very clearly that every atheist I have known personally behaved morally consistent with the norms of the culture.
Behaviour which is considered morally correct is very much relative to the Ethos of the civilization or social condition of the time and locale. Groups don't tend to break down into clusters of law abiding and criminal neatly along religious lines. They break down consistent with other factors like income, education and class. If the morality of atheists in some biological imperative you would find a consistent atheist morality extending unaltered throughout time and geographic location. A chinese atheist of 3rd century BCE should espouse the same moral stance as a Bengali of the 20th century and both should be consistent with an atheist living in New York today.
Quote:It seems to me that you are inadvertently making the argument that if we just educated the poor and disenfranchised there would be no need for religion. You have said that you understand that the educated atheists have and understand morality but the poor and uneducated don't so they need something to keep them in line. Your problem disappears if we just educate the uneducated and there is no need to further a mass delusion. So education seems to be the answer to the problem, not mass delusion.
Well there aren't enough jobs for everyone even if they were educated and there are still the other isms to deal with.......However, lets say that everyone was Free, received the same Justice as their neighbor, had adequate resources , and had Equal opportunity and education...yeah..You wouldn't need Religion at all..I think the Great Morgan Freeman/Gandalf/Dumbledore/ Sky Daddy would be happy with that.
Quote:I understand your concern, Mote, but sweeping the problems under the carpet isn't making it go away.
No, I agree. But the fact that the problem is under the rug is not a mistake...Religion which proposes that man must live subservient to the unjust and await a reward for suffering which will not arrive until the afterlife is in fact an Opiate for the masses. But this indictment of religion should in no way be a sweeping indictment of all spiritual systems. There are spiritual systems which do not purpose to have people wait until after death for reward or to behave properly for financing the Condo in Heaven thing....
Now perhaps someone would like to propose how we go about educating everyone without starting a war...
Whirling Moat
