Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: September 4, 2026, 9:23 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
A Necessary Being?
#51
RE: A Necessary Being?
(August 29, 2016 at 4:13 pm)TheMuslim Wrote: Is there anything wrong with a Necessary Being per se?

If you mean to ask whether something like that could exist, the answer is no.  

A necessary thing is a thing that exists in every possible world, but some possible worlds don't include necessary things.

We know this by definition:  A possible world is any world that doesn't include any logical contradictions (think square circles and married bachelors).  There is nothing contradictory about worlds without necessary beings.  Therefore, such worlds are, by definition, possible.  

Since some possible worlds don't include necessary beings, there can't be a necessary being in every possible world.  Yet that is the definition of necessary being: "a being that exists in all possible worlds." 

So, 
1. the NB must (by definition of "necessary") exist in every possible world if it exists at all, and
2. the NB does not (by definition of "possible world") exist in every possible world.  

Therefore, necessary beings do not exist.  



Quote:Is there really anything incoherent or illogical about the very concept of a Necessary Being?

I have trouble with transworld identity.  I am skeptical of the concept, at least as explained by Plantinga.  I am not in a position to call it incoherent, but I remain skeptical.  

But, again, if what you're really asking is whether one could exist, the answer is no.  



Quote:In other words, can anyone come up with reasons why a Necessary Being is impossible?

Yes.  See above.



Quote:Or have we now accepted that it is certainly possible for there to be a Necessary Being?

It is not possible.  It is impossible.  It can't happen.  It would be logically self-contradictory.  There is no possible world in which a necessary being is possible.  



===

(August 29, 2016 at 4:51 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Can anyone show what exactly such a being would be necessary for?

We're talking about something that cannot logically not exist.  Or, in possible-world-speak, it exists in every possible world.  That's all we're talking about.  Said a third way, we are refuting the modal ontological argument. 

That's all that's being discussed here.   Angles are "necessary" to triangles in the sense that an angle-less triangle would be contradictory.  We aren't talking about something necessary in the sense of being needed.  We're talking only about something that cannot logically fail to exist. 

===

(August 29, 2016 at 5:04 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: Something is necessary implies it has a purpose, and if by definition it has to exist, then there is nothing inherently wrong about it existing so long as the purpose exists.

Purpose is not in issue.  A radius is necessary to a circle, but that doesn't mean the circle has purpose.  The question before us is whether a god can be "necessary" to all possible worlds in the same sense that a radius is necessary to a circle.  Purpose doesn't come into it.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 29, 2016 at 4:13 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Grandizer - August 29, 2016 at 4:37 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 29, 2016 at 4:47 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by quip - August 29, 2016 at 4:44 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 29, 2016 at 5:21 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by quip - August 29, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by paulpablo - August 29, 2016 at 4:47 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 29, 2016 at 4:50 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by paulpablo - August 29, 2016 at 5:37 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 4:49 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 29, 2016 at 4:51 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 29, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 29, 2016 at 5:06 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by quip - August 29, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 30, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 30, 2016 at 1:43 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:00 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:02 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:04 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:06 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:07 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:12 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 29, 2016 at 5:13 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 29, 2016 at 5:23 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 29, 2016 at 5:12 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:15 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:16 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 29, 2016 at 5:19 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:13 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:16 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:22 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 29, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:18 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:20 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:22 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 29, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:26 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by quip - August 29, 2016 at 5:27 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:30 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by quip - August 29, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:31 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 29, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2016 at 5:34 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 29, 2016 at 5:57 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 29, 2016 at 6:05 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Cato - August 29, 2016 at 5:48 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 29, 2016 at 5:52 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - August 30, 2016 at 12:39 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Aoi Magi - August 30, 2016 at 12:46 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - August 30, 2016 at 1:55 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 30, 2016 at 2:57 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 30, 2016 at 1:48 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 30, 2016 at 3:13 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by LostLocke - August 30, 2016 at 9:03 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - August 30, 2016 at 4:44 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 30, 2016 at 6:14 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Mister Agenda - August 31, 2016 at 9:02 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - August 31, 2016 at 12:01 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 30, 2016 at 11:40 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - August 31, 2016 at 1:39 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 30, 2016 at 5:27 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 30, 2016 at 6:31 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Mister Agenda - August 30, 2016 at 9:09 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 30, 2016 at 10:40 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2016 at 10:45 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 31, 2016 at 8:49 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2016 at 1:52 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2016 at 6:17 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2016 at 6:48 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 30, 2016 at 7:01 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2016 at 7:16 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 30, 2016 at 11:21 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Ben Davis - August 30, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 30, 2016 at 8:08 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by chimp3 - August 30, 2016 at 9:07 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 30, 2016 at 9:39 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 30, 2016 at 11:30 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 30, 2016 at 11:38 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Ben Davis - August 31, 2016 at 9:05 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 31, 2016 at 4:21 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - August 30, 2016 at 10:48 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 30, 2016 at 10:58 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2016 at 7:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 31, 2016 at 8:54 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 30, 2016 at 7:27 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2016 at 9:40 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 30, 2016 at 9:48 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 30, 2016 at 11:42 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 31, 2016 at 12:33 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Edwardo Piet - August 31, 2016 at 12:39 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Arkilogue - August 31, 2016 at 12:43 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 6:21 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - August 31, 2016 at 8:38 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 8:52 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 9:03 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 31, 2016 at 10:47 am
A Necessary Being? - by LadyForCamus - August 31, 2016 at 9:57 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 11:21 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 31, 2016 at 12:19 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 31, 2016 at 2:53 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Cato - August 31, 2016 at 3:49 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by RoadRunner79 - August 31, 2016 at 4:17 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 1, 2016 at 5:59 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - September 1, 2016 at 7:15 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - September 1, 2016 at 7:49 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Cyberman - September 1, 2016 at 10:10 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 2, 2016 at 12:57 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - September 2, 2016 at 1:14 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Gemini - September 2, 2016 at 1:14 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Angrboda - September 3, 2016 at 1:49 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 31, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 31, 2016 at 12:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 12:47 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Ravenshire - August 31, 2016 at 1:13 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by downbeatplumb - August 31, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Cato - August 31, 2016 at 4:54 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by RoadRunner79 - August 31, 2016 at 6:03 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 4:57 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by RoadRunner79 - August 31, 2016 at 6:20 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Cato - August 31, 2016 at 5:28 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 6:36 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by TheMuslim - August 31, 2016 at 6:53 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 31, 2016 at 7:18 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by wiploc - September 1, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - August 31, 2016 at 8:09 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by bennyboy - September 1, 2016 at 11:37 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Gemini - September 2, 2016 at 7:36 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - September 2, 2016 at 2:51 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by bennyboy - September 2, 2016 at 3:14 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - September 2, 2016 at 6:54 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Cyberman - September 2, 2016 at 7:10 am
A Necessary Being? - by LadyForCamus - September 2, 2016 at 7:36 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Mudhammam - September 10, 2016 at 3:32 pm
A Necessary Being? - by LadyForCamus - September 2, 2016 at 7:58 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - September 3, 2016 at 1:14 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by downbeatplumb - September 3, 2016 at 3:39 am
A Necessary Being? - by LadyForCamus - September 3, 2016 at 8:20 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by robvalue - September 3, 2016 at 10:43 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Levi_Black - September 7, 2016 at 6:33 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Alex K - September 7, 2016 at 6:37 am
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Levi_Black - September 7, 2016 at 4:50 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Whateverist - September 7, 2016 at 5:29 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by ApeNotKillApe - September 7, 2016 at 4:52 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Alex K - September 7, 2016 at 4:54 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by ApeNotKillApe - September 7, 2016 at 5:05 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Alex K - September 7, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by ApeNotKillApe - September 7, 2016 at 6:25 pm
RE: A Necessary Being? - by Levi_Black - September 7, 2016 at 5:17 pm
A Necessary Being? - by LadyForCamus - September 7, 2016 at 6:42 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  A timeless being cannot create mcc1789 125 36601 August 29, 2019 at 1:01 am
Last Post: GrandizerII
  Best response to "You are being too bookish and nerdy!"? FlatAssembler 25 6949 April 5, 2018 at 5:39 pm
Last Post: *Deidre*
  Testimony: Are we being hypocritical? LadyForCamus 86 23348 November 22, 2017 at 11:37 pm
Last Post: Martian Mermaid
  Necessary Thing Ignorant 204 62551 April 24, 2016 at 1:14 pm
Last Post: J a c k
  Necessary First Principles, Self-Evident Truths Mudhammam 4 2613 July 10, 2015 at 9:48 pm
Last Post: Pyrrho
  Being vs. Believing henryp 22 8251 May 27, 2015 at 12:01 pm
Last Post: henryp
  God as a non-empirical being noctalla 39 11481 April 19, 2015 at 4:46 am
Last Post: robvalue
  is being condescending ever a good tactic? MusicLovingAtheist 20 5718 September 19, 2014 at 8:13 pm
Last Post: ShaMan
  Necessary Truths Exist Rational AKD 57 33019 December 25, 2013 at 6:39 am
Last Post: Rational AKD
  The burden of wisdom/enlightenment, being good is too hard! Mystic 24 11983 May 16, 2013 at 10:09 pm
Last Post: Godscreated



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)