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May 24, 2011 at 1:50 pm (This post was last modified: May 24, 2011 at 1:55 pm by Statler Waldorf.)
(May 23, 2011 at 10:37 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:
(May 23, 2011 at 8:38 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Because it is impossible to have an infinite series of finite causes. So the first cause must be separate from the Universe and also eternal.
Just 'because' is not an answer Statler.
When reading up on causality within physics you appreciate how complex nature and reality is, causes are happening as we speak and carry indefinitely, the universe is expanding all the time, we are going to have ongoing cause and effect probably occurring endlessly.
Making claims for or against infinity is also senseless; you can't identify, realise, falsify, test for, verify, or even get to infinity, it's not a real number or quantitative property.
And since you've moved the goalposts, if God as uncreated creator is separate from the universe then what is outside the universe? Or rather what does the universe exist in?
It's not a "just because" answer; it's a matter of logic. If you had an infinite series of finite causes you would have to traverse an infinite amount of them to arrive where we are today (the present), of course it is impossible to traverse and infinite amount of anything. So therefore, since we are in the present, the first cause must have had to be eternal.
The first cause had to be separate from the universe because nothing can bring itself into existence because it would have to exist and not-exist prior to its existence which violates the law of contradiction.
(May 24, 2011 at 2:51 am)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote:
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?
Verifiable, falsifiable, testable evidence.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?
Yes. Either directly or indirectly, humans are very likely to have made those letters at the beach.
Short of physical evidence to the contrary or in support, humans are the only creatures on the planet who have proven to be capable of making (or training other creatures to make) such lettering in the sand. This is because humans are the only ones on the planet with the means and ability (and evidence to support these abilities) to do so.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?
If the god of the christian bible were real (which is what I assume you mean) then, I would fully expect that, being all powerful and omnipotent, that God would make and brutally enforce his rules upon humanity. The bible depicts several such genocides as a result of his petty and vindictive behavior.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?
Yes, moral laws (that is, laws that govern human behavior and action) exist in everything from societal to religious or other organizational rules for living.
In other words, murder and theft is illegal in society, religion can dictate what you can and cannot eat, the US republican party platform includes a strict pro-life stance. All of these dictate human behavior with numerous (including moral) reasoning behind their existence.
Such laws can and do exist outside and independant of humanity in the sense that humans have these laws entirely because we are social creatures that depend on one another and thus laws of all kinds are necessary for any human society to function. Other creatures on this planet also have societies and thus also have rules to interact with one another and exist as a cohesive unit.
I know what many of them are because certain laws are universal in the sense that the lack of certain laws are counterintuitive to a cohesive and structure society. That fact doesn't prevent many human and animal societies from breaking these cardinal rules frequently, however. For example, outlawing murder is an easy 'moral' law for all societies to have as it is conductive to like creatures getting along with one another. Doesn't prevent certain bastards from committing mass murder, like Howard Barton Unruh.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?
That's already happened. It was called slavery, though granted I don't think every human being on the planet did so simulatneously, but that's what happens when you consider people to be property rather than people.
So according to my sensibilities from having been raised in an environment where humans value equalitiy of the genders and respect for your fellow man, then yes, to me it would be morally wrong.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?
Any religion that teaches intolerance, suspicion, ignorance, and closed-mindedness is the most dangerous religion on earth.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 7. Where did the laws of logic come from?
Humans.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?
events aren't not rational.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?
I don't know who those people are. I assume ignorance based on assumption rather than evidence.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?
A thought is a process of the concious mind. A belief is the idea that something is true, sans evidence of any kind.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 11. Do you believe that God does not exist?
Correct.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 12. Do you think that God does not exist?
Correct.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 13. How do you think life began on Earth?
I don't know. I suspect the answer is most likely through one or more processes of abiogenesis.
Hey TDOA,
Thanks for the response. Could you elaborate on two things for me though? You say that the laws of logic come from humans, but then how could we have a law of contradiction when human minds contradict one another all the time? So could you explain your point?
Secondly, I don't follow your answer to number 7, are you saying natural events are indeed rational?