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Proverbs 16:4
#98
RE: Proverbs 16:4
(May 26, 2011 at 11:37 am)Zenith Wrote: OK, though I believe it was impossible for God to know for sure what choice Adam & Eve would have made, I do believe that there was a high probability (don't know how high) for the man, or the woman, or both, to do that wrong thing. And, inevitably, God should have expected this to happen.

If it was impossible for God to not know for sure what choice A&E would make, then he is not omniscient. Further, if he has some "impossibility" imposed upon him, he is also not all-powerful. Some Christians (Calvinists) would disagree with you about the predestination thing. But I wasn't talking about predestination. Condemning certain people to perdition and rewarding others in the afterlife before they are born is a little different than merely knowing which choice people will make beforehand. I was referring to the latter scenario.

(May 26, 2011 at 11:37 am)Zenith Wrote: We also have Job (and here, again, I believe God could have not known 100% sure what the reaction of Job would have been, and the sufferings he was going to pass through were the only ones who could have proven how faithful to God Job really is).
Quote:What God supposedly did to Job (all because of a wager with Satan) was ghastly and almost on its own accord, makes a strong case that this god is a) not real or b) unworthy of worship at all. But again, Job reads as if God was unsure how Job would react to the various "tests" placed on him. But if he was indeed unsure, he is not omniscient and thus, does not conform to the accepted notion of the Jewish or Christian god.

[quote='Zenith' pid='140310' dateline='1306424271']
We also see from the NT that Jesus' sufferings and death were something regarded as honorable, as in Hebrews 5.8-9 ... in the Bible it is stated that God loves His only Son (i.e. Jesus), but that did not make God deny Jesus live unpleasant experiences.

Fair enough point about suffering. But I would say that if God has that little regard for human life, he shouldn't have bothered creating this vale of woe in the first place just so that millions would fail to accept the story and only a scant number of all people ever born would actually come to believe in Jesus. Also, if god is real and we are his beloved creation, he must be a very sad deity indeed. If he is only concerned with the afterlife, it seems like our humans lives would be a sheer waste of time. Surely, if God was all-powerful, he could have created all of us in an adult state, perhaps at the same time as Adam and Eve, presented us with the choice to obey or not, and make his judgment, saving us and himself a lot of trouble.

[quote='Zenith' pid='140310' dateline='1306424271']
It appears that as He made us free, with free will, the same way He left us develop naturally, rather than force upon us attributes, i.e. to be/become in a way (wiser, with more patience, kinder, etc.) by a "hocus pocus" (which is, unnatural).

But he displays all kinds of unnatural attributes and actions in the Bible. It doesn't seem to be the case that God is too concerned with maintaining the natural order, which is why it's so baffling that nothing like occurrences in the Bible have taken place in 2,000 years. God was unconcerned with the natural order then. Why is he now? Did he change? If so, God is not the same yesterday, today and forever.

On free will: The options to follow him and go to heaven or not and go to hell is not free will but a divine imposition to believe or face the fire. Prisoners do not have free will in the same way. They can either be model citizens in jail with the hope of an early parole or be a deviant and remain locked inside. For the prisoner, like us, there is no third option.
Our Daily Train blog at jeremystyron.com

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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot

"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir

"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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Messages In This Thread
Proverbs 16:4 - by Skipper - May 18, 2011 at 11:15 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Kayenneh - May 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Skipper - May 18, 2011 at 1:22 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 18, 2011 at 12:31 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Ace Otana - May 18, 2011 at 12:46 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 18, 2011 at 12:53 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by DeistPaladin - May 18, 2011 at 1:16 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Strongbad - May 18, 2011 at 1:19 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 18, 2011 at 1:27 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 18, 2011 at 1:41 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Angrboda - May 19, 2011 at 1:22 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Skipper - May 18, 2011 at 1:45 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 18, 2011 at 2:00 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Skipper - May 18, 2011 at 2:09 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 18, 2011 at 2:23 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 18, 2011 at 2:12 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 18, 2011 at 2:57 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 18, 2011 at 5:43 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Faith No More - May 18, 2011 at 6:11 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 18, 2011 at 6:16 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Faith No More - May 18, 2011 at 6:26 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 18, 2011 at 6:28 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Faith No More - May 18, 2011 at 6:42 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 19, 2011 at 6:15 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Faith No More - May 19, 2011 at 6:35 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 19, 2011 at 7:52 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Strongbad - May 19, 2011 at 2:47 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Faith No More - May 19, 2011 at 3:31 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Nimzo - May 19, 2011 at 4:01 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by prayforme - May 20, 2011 at 3:48 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Faith No More - May 20, 2011 at 10:15 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Kayenneh - May 18, 2011 at 3:10 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by reverendjeremiah - May 18, 2011 at 7:12 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 18, 2011 at 8:36 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by padraic - May 18, 2011 at 8:46 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by RDK - May 18, 2011 at 9:06 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Eudaimonia - May 18, 2011 at 11:16 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 18, 2011 at 11:55 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 19, 2011 at 5:41 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Darwinian - May 19, 2011 at 5:49 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Godschild - May 19, 2011 at 1:23 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 19, 2011 at 3:07 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by padraic - May 19, 2011 at 3:15 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 19, 2011 at 5:57 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by RDK - May 19, 2011 at 12:15 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 19, 2011 at 12:22 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 19, 2011 at 1:28 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 19, 2011 at 6:42 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 19, 2011 at 7:00 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 20, 2011 at 2:28 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 20, 2011 at 3:48 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 20, 2011 at 3:53 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 20, 2011 at 8:00 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 21, 2011 at 7:40 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 19, 2011 at 1:47 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Kayenneh - May 19, 2011 at 2:17 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by tackattack - May 19, 2011 at 7:12 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 19, 2011 at 10:01 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by tackattack - May 20, 2011 at 3:02 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by tackattack - May 20, 2011 at 5:06 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by fr0d0 - May 20, 2011 at 5:44 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by prayforme - May 20, 2011 at 3:47 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 20, 2011 at 7:47 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by tackattack - May 20, 2011 at 8:16 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 21, 2011 at 5:07 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Ace Otana - May 20, 2011 at 2:39 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 20, 2011 at 3:48 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 20, 2011 at 4:51 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 20, 2011 at 5:09 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 20, 2011 at 5:54 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 20, 2011 at 5:57 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 20, 2011 at 6:22 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 20, 2011 at 6:45 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 20, 2011 at 7:22 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 20, 2011 at 11:54 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by JohnDG - May 21, 2011 at 4:08 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 21, 2011 at 8:29 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Ace Otana - May 21, 2011 at 8:34 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 21, 2011 at 4:32 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by RDK - May 21, 2011 at 4:47 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by RDK - May 21, 2011 at 10:12 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Cinjin - May 22, 2011 at 4:25 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by bbrettle - May 22, 2011 at 7:58 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by fr0d0 - May 22, 2011 at 8:04 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by bbrettle - May 23, 2011 at 1:22 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by fr0d0 - May 23, 2011 at 7:41 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Doubting Thomas - May 23, 2011 at 12:59 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 23, 2011 at 5:25 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 25, 2011 at 4:52 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 25, 2011 at 6:17 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 25, 2011 at 6:58 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Minimalist - May 23, 2011 at 6:37 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 24, 2011 at 6:41 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 25, 2011 at 7:45 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - June 4, 2011 at 8:52 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Anymouse - May 25, 2011 at 7:54 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 26, 2011 at 11:37 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by everythingafter - May 26, 2011 at 4:32 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - May 29, 2011 at 8:59 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - May 26, 2011 at 6:55 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - June 6, 2011 at 9:21 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - June 8, 2011 at 6:17 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - June 8, 2011 at 6:28 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - June 8, 2011 at 6:32 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Statler Waldorf - June 8, 2011 at 6:35 pm
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by Zenith - June 9, 2011 at 6:53 am
RE: Proverbs 16:4 - by tackattack - June 9, 2011 at 7:06 am



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