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Statler Waldorf · (This post was last modified: May 26, 2011 at 7:13 pm by Statler Waldorf.)

(May 26, 2011 at 11:37 am)Zenith Wrote:
everythingafter Wrote:God: "I created man, and it was good. Now, I'm going to put you in the garden where the devil will inevitably tempt you. I will allow the devil into my wonderful garden so you can prove your obedience to me. Unfortunately, you will fail. I knew you would fail beforehand, but I chose to create you anyway. Even though I have cursed you and every other human that will come after you, I love you and Eve. But take heart, I'm sending my son to die a horrible death for you. That makes it better, right? In retrospect, I guess I could have prevented the whole ugly scenario in the first place, but I, in all my lucidity, chose to begin the slow death march of humanity. Some of you, I admit, will think on these things and probably reject me. Oh well. Sorry about that. I'm all-powerful and all-loving, but there's nothing I can do there. My omniscient hands are tied. But I do love you. You know that, right?"

That is quite a good question.
From the knowledge I have of the bible and how I understand it (most surely, most to all christians would say that I'm wrong, but whatever, not that I care). I will say my view and perhaps it would be in some way useful to you, or to anyone else.

For the explanation I use the premise which I believe that it is also according to the Bible: that God does not know the things that are absurd to be known (like, if after 30 years will be born a man with name X, and all the things that he would do, and if he would deserve heaven or hell after he dies). And I also use the premise that God did not predestined people to heaven/hell before the creation of the world.

OK, though I believe it was impossible for God to know for sure what choice Adam & Eve would have made, I do believe that there was a high probability (don't know how high) for the man, or the woman, or both, to do that wrong thing. And, inevitably, God should have expected this to happen.

I'll first address the issue of suffering (as it's mainly about this):
There are verses in the Bible that seem to suggest that God had chosen sufferings for His people (what to say now about the other people...): we start from the Jews in Egypt. God said to Abraham that they would be slaves there for 4 centuries and that they will be treated harshly there (so it was God's decision to be so), Gen 15.13. We also know that "good" people were decided to be left in the hands of evil people (like Daniel 11.31-35, which seem to describe the period when the Seleucid Empire conquered the land where Jews lived, from the Ptolemaic Empire). We also have Job (and here, again, I believe God could have not known 100% sure what the reaction of Job would have been, and the sufferings he was going to pass through were the only ones who could have proven how faithful to God Job really is).

Now, if we look upon the New Testament, it seems stronger highlighted that sufferings are meant for the people (verses like Matthew 10.16-36, Romans 8.18, 2 Corinthians 1.5, Collosians 1.24, 1 Peter 5.9). We also see from the NT that Jesus' sufferings and death were something regarded as honorable, as in Hebrews 5.8-9 (and also says that Jesus has been "perfected" by them, which makes a bit hard to understand what this "perfect" should mean). Other verses that claim that the sufferings are "good" are Hebrews 2.10 and Hebrews 11.35-40. And yes, in the Bible it is stated that God loves His only Son (i.e. Jesus), but that did not make God deny Jesus live unpleasant experiences.

So my conclusion is that God doesn't care too much about people's current sufferings (perhaps, especially because, for an eternity, maximum 80 years is quite a little... and, because He seems to take an eternally long afterlife into consideration).

But, to get back to why God did not chose a better plan (which could have been, such as, create us like angels, all at once, and who did something wrong/evil, to throw him to a trash container): It appears that as He made us free, with free will, the same way He left us develop naturally, rather than force upon us attributes, i.e. to be/become in a way (wiser, with more patience, kinder, etc.) by a "hocus pocus" (which is, unnatural). And the way we can become like this, naturally, is by experiences we pass through, here. Also, this chaotic way how things are now is letting everyone prove how he is, his worthiness, thoroughly. For instance, if there was no man to do evil to (by an evil man), then the evil man could have not chosen to be how he wanted to be like and could have not proven his worthiness, or actually, the lack of it, in order to be rewarded afterwards correctly. The same way, a man passes through experiences that test him, and when I say "experiences that test him" I mean problems, even great problems, which allows him to decide how he wants to be, and strengthens him on that path. Thus a man can prove his worthiness, and receive his proper reward afterwards. But, if there was no evil man to cause problems/evil, then the man could have not proven correctly and wholly his worthiness afterwards.

Also, from the Bible it seems that God made man with the intent to rule over His whole creation (Gen 1.26, Psalm 8.4-9). "man" was made like God (i.e. in His likeness): free, with the power to judge, to chose, to be how he wanted, to rule over the things that were created - and the things that were created were created for man, i.e. men were created like gods (well, only that not gods for other men, but gods as masters over all the earth and all that is in it). That's why it is even written that men that belong to God are "heirs" (Romans 8.17, Galatians 4.7). So that might be yet another reason why free men had to pass through experiences (like, unpleasant experiences), that would form a character in them and to be proven worthy for that, when they are about to 'inherit' His Kingdom. And perhaps He wanted the man to 'work' for his reward, rather than receiving everything in the blink of an eye, without doing anything for it, just so, easy as pie.

P.S. feedback appreciated (as for the christians, only if tackattack or, fr0d0).

I know I didn't make your Christian feedback list, but I was just wondering how you get to your open theism (God does not know all future events) position by using scripture? Thanks!

Well that’s not a very fair representation of Calvinism, but be that as it may, even if God only knows future events you can’t get away from predestination. If God’s knowledge of your future actions is perfect, and he knows you will never trust in Christ. Is there anything you can do then to trust in Christ? Can you make any choices that would change this outcome? If God’s knowledge is perfect, then the answer is no. I would argue that not only does God have knowledge of future events, but he practices a preordination of them. This is why open theism arose, it is a way of trying to preserve man’s freedom of choice, I think it is unbiblical but it pops up in churches nonetheless.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/A...rib_04.htm

We are in the New Covenant, where after He sent His son, God became less directly visible to man. I find it interesting though that even when God was visible and very active there were people who disobeyed His commandments. A prime example is when the Israelites complain about having to eat manna all the time in the desert. Here they have been rescued from bondage by God and they have the nerve to complain about the fact they don’t like the food that God is giving them to survive?

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