robvalue Wrote:I find these analogies very flawed. To begin with, as is usual, God is being compared to a human and as such expected to be allowed the excuse of a human's lack of capabilities.
Scientists attempt to predict the weather. They do not know what the weather will be. God does know. And he did indeed cause it all, because he made all this, knowing what would happen. I don't know how he could be any more responsible. The constant efforts people make to try and relieve god's responsibility for his own creation seem to reveal the obvious gap between what one would expect and what one sees. Is this his plan, or not? He made it and he knows its future. Scientists neither made the weather, nor actually know its future. The anology doesn't work.
Please correct me if I have mistakenly understood your reason why my analogy doesn't hold. According to you, my analogy is incorrect, for scientist are very different from God, as the former didn't made the weather and couldn't stop it, while God did made the weather (as He is the creator) and that He can stop it.
To be honest, I can't understand why my analogy is incorrect with that reason. Because, analogies are arguments which shows what are partially the same, and what are partially different, and with focusing on what's the same and ignoring what's different, one can make a sound conclusion. So, analogy can show differences. But, your reason why my analogy is incorrect is that there are differences with God and the scientist. Therefore, it seems to me that your reason for saying that my analogy is wrong.
robvalue Wrote:Secondly, you're suggesting God has some sort of restrictions and that if we understood them, suffering would make sense. If there are restrictions, either he made them himself, or they were imposed on him. In the first case he's still responsible. In the second he's not all powerful. Could he achieve whatever bizarre plan he wanted, with all of the positive outcomes, without the suffering? If yes, he's choosing the suffering. If no, he's not all powerful.
What I have understood from your second point are the following: God must be restricted so that we can understand suffering. He is restricted by being either causing suffering or He was made to be restricted. By that, He is either responsible or not all powerful.
First, I'm not suggesting in any way here that God has restrictions. For, what I have shown are the restriction of our perspective.
Second, to answer your dilemma, which shows whether God is either responsible or all powerful, I'm sorry, but that is a false dilemma. For, neither God is responsible nor He is truly all powerful. As, freewill is real and He is the Creator. But, if an either/or proposition doesn't have at least one true content, then the dilemma which has the either/or proposition will be a false dilemma. But, that is the case here. So, the dilemma you've shown is false.
robvalue Wrote:You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
Agree. And, He can also have it neither ways.
robvalue Wrote:What does he need with a plan, or outcomes? He can do anything, instantly. He has no barriers or adversaries.
Agree. Yet, we do have barriers and adversaries and He respects our nature, as it is fitting for God to be a God of order.
bennyboy Wrote:The difference is that we are not claimed to be all-powerful. Nobody EXPECTS the weatherman to stop the rain.
Yet, the all analogies portray partially the same and partially different. Hence, no analogy will fail just because there are difference. Otherwise, all argument from analogy would be wrong.
bennyboy Wrote:If what is good to God is not good to man-- i.e. if it involves suffering of children, untimely illness and death, and so on, then why should we give a shit whether he has a plan, or whether he exists at all?
First, it is not true that sufferings of every kind is good to God while not being good to man. For, sufferings are not part of His original plan. Yet, He allowed suffering to happen to make us understand His power and so we can become more than we are: from being son of man into being sons and daughters of God. For in suffering, we able to be more loving. In suffering, we can give ourselves to those who are suffering in a way one cannot give to those who doesn't suffer.
