Believe:

[Kyuuketsuki]

Thank you for replying, and I am quite happy that you are being much more pleasant. I apologize for being snappy, but we have to feel out each others boundaries, yes? I don't know if I quite like the bullet format though. It feels to formal.

If you're happy fine but I don't really think my stance or attitude has changed.

Your "evidence" is not evidence in the accepted sense.

I feel that your 'evidence' for the lack of god would seem unreal or untrue to me as well. I don't really want to talk abot evidence, because I think that it will go no where. I will say 'such-and-such makes me think there is god', and you will say 'poppycock!'. Then you could say 'This is why I think there cannot be god' to which I will reply 'foolery!'. It seems pointless.

Reasoned explanations based on evidence are the only explanations that have, to date, been shown to work, to be of value. I can't prove the god in your head is wrong, I can only keep pointing out to you ad nauseum that there is no validatable evidence. So, yes, if you won't tell me what the evidence is then we are at an impasse.

Why do people like you say things like, "You're not listening"?
You say I'm not listening or that I'm angry or that I'm this or that.
I AM listening (reading your post)

I don't mean to be dismissive. I can't speak for 'people like me' as I have yet to meet one. I mean that it appears you are reading my points and disagreeing and arguing without actually internalizing and thinking about the points therein. In fact you are reading my posts TO disagree. You are free too, but that is only what I meant by 'you are not listening,'.

Then you are wrong, the implications of what you say are wrong ... there is no law, no rule of debate that says I have to think like you (indeed the very idea that I could think that irrationally scares me ... and yes I do believe that belief in gods is irrational) and to take the tack you are taking is little but a dismissive attempt at character assassination.

all scripture as being of equal value, non-divine and as useful ways of understanding what he saw as the true god.

That is well put, and I would have to agree. All scripture is theology and poetry. It all holds the same value. Although, say the babylonian talmud, or the necronomicon hold less relative truth than the tao or the gospel of truth. The prior two are honest, just bad.

Sigh! This is getting distinctly Frodoish ... and exactly how do you justify that one particular scripture holds more worth than another?

Please let me explain some more. I do care about discussion. I do care about what I think. I do care about sharing what I think, and listening to what others think. As a coping mechanism though, I really, really try not to care what you (other people in general) think. I sometimes get angry for a second when someone does something that offends me, but I try to remind myself that I don't (or shouldn't) care what they think. And I was saying that yes, I do the same for positive reinforcement as I do for the negative. It makes it less fun when a girl says your cute, but I would have flown off the handle at all these idiots around me so viscously entitled to their silly opinions.

IOW you care ... so stop messing about and just accept that it matters as much to you as it does to me that people agree and disagree with what you say.

I hope I can try to explain that I am not 'BSing more than a little'. I don't really want to leave, although I could. I don't think I should leave, you are not being fair. You don't care one dickens what I think about your beliefs. My not caring about your opinions of me is a defense mechanism. I hear your beliefs (although we aren't discussing them), I just don't instantly take them as more or as valid as my own. I meant I don't care if you don't like me, or how you treat me. I care very much about god and life and my human family. I care about debate and discussion. That is why I am here, not because I want to lay out my (theistic) beliefs (in front of atheists) for validation.

You're wrong. I care what people think about my views (even you) ... that much must be obvious from the way that I defend them.

If you think Dawkins is an ass because of the way he behaves you must have lived a very sheltered life.
I do not particularly care which "rules" you follow, if you care that much I'm sure you will tell me (though I thought you didn't care what people thought).
Likewise for your conscience (neither you nor I "possess" morals).
I'm always interested in music ... I'm into nu-metal, symphonic metal and stuff like that.

I live a very un-sheltered life on purpose. I think Dawkins is an extreme asshole, but please let me broaden the circle. I have met hundreds of thousands of assholes. They are mostly such. I would be happy to tell you about my rules, but I would not care how you mocked them. If anything my morals 'posses' me. I like very similar music (see!?!). I play a lot of music actually. I am not good at math, so I learned music because we all have to learn about a fundamental truth to better understand life. Math and music are not invented, they are interpreted from what is really there.

• You must have
  
• No, Dawkins, IS NOT an asshole just because you say so, he is ex-Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science and, quite frankly, people don't get given positions such as that when they are "assholes" ... the fact is that you equate "asshole" to someone you don't like or who attitude you don't like and that makes YOU the asshole.
  
• Then tell me.
  
• I'm not good at math either but that doesn't mean I reject it like you do science because you (apparently) aren't good at it.
  
• What fundamental truth would than be then?
  
• Music is human interpretation of sounds that are part of this apparently naturally "evolved" universe. Math is a human method of managing abstract numbers and their relationships or (more precisely I assume) is the science or a group of related sciences that deals with the logic of quantity, shape and arrangement (Wordnet).

I am more to see if you say anything on the subject of religion that makes sense.

I am not talking about religion, I am talking about my own personal god. We could talk about religion, but it would be a very different discussion. I have a deep hatred and disgust for control mechanisms based on lies and fear. It is likely we could agree a lot on religion.

Hmmmm....

According to standard big bang theory atoms were created about 100th of a second after the big bang.

Haha, the standard theory of the big bang? Ok, then what happened 100th of a second before the big bang? Something more unbelievable than god, singularity. I am only pointing out that I would never be as foolish as to say 'we don't need to research HOW things work, because I think I know WHY they are there or HOW they were made,'.

There was no "before" the big bang, time is a property of space and space was created when this universe formed.

If you think that equates to me being a 2 year old girl then you have a lot more problems than I initially thought.

I regret being so rude, but my point was well made. I didn't say 2-year old girl. I said 2-year old. It is allegorical. I could also have called you an American. It is a state of mind that never progressed past 'me' and 'mine, mine, mine'. It was very rude, and not quite necessary, but like I said I believe the point was made. If I may apologize, and hope you don't think I think your are only 2 (although I don't care one way or another WHAT you think). I only hope you don't from the point of our discussion.

• My mistake on the girl, my apology in turn.
  
• You've be wrong to cal me American.
  
• Apology accepted.
  
• You DO care otherwise you wouldn't be here.

Kyu