(April 2, 2017 at 7:07 pm)wallym Wrote:(April 2, 2017 at 12:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I thought about this for a few days. It may be true we need a universal perspective for it to be objective, I am not sure about this. However, then you say a true value from their personal perspective which seems like a contradiction. A brain is not a universal perspective.
Do you mean the value they believe themselves come from their brains? Because their true value and their objective value mean the same thing.
That was some sloppy wording by me with personal perspective. I'm not talking about the individuals opinion. I'm talking about them being the reference point.
Using your earlier example:
If I said "How big?" I'd expect the response of "How big what?"
But if I said "How big is the moon?" That's a question with a real answer.
The same goes for value.
"How valuable is a bike?" (to who or what?) vs. "How valuable is a bike to MK."
You can guess at it, like you can guess at the size of the moon. You know it gives you exercise, and gets you to school, and maybe riding it causes you some happiness.
Objectively, though, with complete information I suspect there is a very real measure of the happiness it causes. A real measure of the health impact. A measure of it's utility to you.
The point being, that with complete information, I think it could objectively quantified how much positive and negative impact individual actions have in fulfilling the goals of a person. Although, it's important to note, I don't think the person is fully aware of their goals, either, which is why I brought up the brain. I believe our brain runs the little voice we identify as ourselves, rather than the voice running the brain. Which is why, as you've said, a person can genuinely think they are doing what's best for themselves, and be wrong about it.
Can we make something valuable to us without believing in inherent value? We can, but it would have no justification and we would be in paradox:
See the thread: https://atheistforums.org/thread-15323-p...#pid355134
