I Used To Be A Fan But I Am Now Shocked, Disgusted And Appalled With Sam Harris

[Edwardo Piet]

I think the term liberal is usually used in a less literal sense.  Left wing people who try and stop opposing views being expressed are often called "So called liberals" or the term liberals is used sarcastically.

Not literally to describe a group of people who have ideas of liberty and equality.

Although I think there is a catch that liberals might justify themselves as being liberal and shutting down someone else's freedom of speech by saying that the person expressing themselves, using their freedom of speech, is a Nazi who is trying to influence people in a way that would be a threat to the liberty and equality of the general public.

My bold.

Well, by liberal that's literally what I mean.

I don't mean whoever happens to identity as liberal even if they aren't actually behaving liberally and successfully promoting liberal values.

My point is that we need more liberalism... and the problem with the "extreme-left" is that they're not actually liberal they just identify as liberal. They may be liberal in some respects but they certainly behave very authoritarian when they try to shut down free-speech.

What's the solution to this pseudo-liberal authoritarianism? Less authoritarianism and more liberalism.

So-called liberals indeed. So-called extreme left. There's nothing extreme about liberalism. There's nothing liberal about trying to shut down free speech in the name of political correctness.

Trying to shut down free speech is an authoritarian thing to do which is right-wing, not left-wing.

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That's not really what I meant. You said yourself, that you were a fan of Sam Harris, but now that you've heard him say something questionable, you're not just not a fan anymore, you're calling him a bigot. Clearly this is important and a big deal to you, since you made this long winded rant about it, or at least you feel strongly about it. Bigot is a pretty strong word and the way you're using it feels like saying 'he's one of them'. So you used to like him and now that you think he holds an opinion you disagree with, you think of him like a bad person. I don't know if this is clearer.

It depends what you mean by "bad person".

I have love in my heart for everyone, and empathy for everyone, even the worst people. Hell, I hold Sam Harris' view in that regard... because I believe there is no free will it allows compassion to open up for even the worst people.

I'm venting as a form of self-relief and to express my frustration, disgust and disappointment with the ignorant opinions I have recently learned he holds. Those opinions are clearly bigoted.

He's far from a bad person if we're talking about his intentions. I think he's a very good person and also a very intelligent person and he was my intellectual hero because his logic is incredible (although he seems to have completely failed to see that the conscious barrier makes the aggregation of utility between individuals in utilitarianism impossible).

But I no longer want to be associated with or can really "like" a person who holds such bigoted viewpoints.

It just upsets me too much. There is absolutely no hatred this side.

I know I often come off as hateful, but I'm really not. I'm not even angry. Not even remotely. I'm just expressing my frustration, disappointment and upset rather aggressively and swearing and ranting a lot because it makes me feel better when something like this upsets me so much.

I didn't intend to be. But it did come over like that. See your other post. You said sweet old bigoted ladies aren't sweet. That came across to me like denying their other aspects.

You're being very nice to me right now and very understanding and I thank you for that.

I'm sorry I called you condescending. Yeah, it did come across that way but I appreciate it that you didn't intend it for it to be that way

I meant the bigoted aspect to them isn't sweet. Of course they can be sweet in other ways. I think Sam Harris is very compassionate person in many many ways. It's silly of me perhaps to throw the baby out with the bathwater and yes that is essentially what I am doing.

But it really is just a case of high standards here. I can't associate myself with someone who holds bigoted opinions.

Again, I didn't intend to be condescending.

That's good. Thank you

I pointed out what I thought was the cause of the problem described in this thread in your thinking.

Thank you for trying to help

The way I characterized you is how you honestly came across to me in this thread

Which is fine

If I am wrong, I'm sorry.

No need to be sorry. We're all allowed to be wrong

I am sorry I responded to you so belligerently and defensively.

It was just the impression I got.

Which is fine

I see that this is an emotional topic for you, so maybe let's end this here. Perhaps I misunderstood you, you misunderstood me, or even more likely, both.

Yeah. Both