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Holocaust Denial
#92
RE: Holocaust Denial
(September 2, 2017 at 4:13 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: But it did have for the most part ease of construction and robust field performance. The wide tracks meant fewer were abandoned during raspusitsa, the sloped armor allowed for lighter weight on those track and the rest of the chassis.

The 500-hp aluminum-block engine was the single best armored powerplant of its era. It burned diesel, reducing flammability, and that aluminum block meant a weight-to-HP unbeat for a long time to come -- especially when you consider that it wasn't lugged into a monster. Thought the 88 could penetrate the T-34's frontal armor at 100 meters or more, the fact is that speed is sometimes armor -- especially on the offensive, as they were after 1943.

It did, though, have weaknesses. But I'm willing to bet we all understand the armored tripod of firepower, armor, and mobility, and without a doubt the T-34 maximized the balance of those factors, while at the same time being much simpler to build than a Panther, more reliable than a Tiger or a Panther, and easily able to defeat a PzKpfw IV.

I guess I'm saying that you two both have fair points.




What is more, the best features of the best German tank designs of the war, features which were emulated in all successful post war tanks, including sloped armor, wide tracks, huge suspension travel, high velocity gun, were all copied from the T-34.  More specifically German features of the best German tanks, such as overlapping interleaved road wheels and split transmission front engine rear drive train, all turn out to be dead ends in evolution of the tanks, and discarded as cumbersome or suboptimal in all post war designs.

Only in ergonomics, including 3 men turret and commander copula with all round vision, were Germans initially ahead, but t-34 fully closed these gap by 1944.

The layout of the t-34 in 1940 was already almost the same as full post WWII tank design.  By 1944 model year the t-34 was effectively indistinguishable from modern post WWII tank in feature, layout and design.

Not so with German designs.  Even the Last German wartime tank design still had some important obsolete basic design features that would never be repeated in post war tank designs.

So it is clear the t-34 was really a extremely balanced, well thought out and forward thinking design with great development potential.  The much heralded German big cats were nothing more than knee jerk reactions to the amazingly superior design from the communistic Slavic untermensch, and although these managed surpass some specs of the T-34 through brute strength - which Germany could ill afford to lavish on individual tanks given its inferior production potential - didn't come close to replicating its holistic forward thinking,

(September 2, 2017 at 4:34 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(September 2, 2017 at 3:47 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: The T34 is my favorite tank of all time


[Image: th?id=OIP.WmJLsONjogGwIKZB5vPEXQEsDI&pid=15.1]

When I was younger I did see weapons as works of art. Like the f-14 Tomcat and the WW2 "W" winged Corsair. But now, I see them as symbols of our species failure to exhaust diplomacy. A necessary evil but I no longer see weapons as art. 

I find no beauty in weapons, not guns, not tanks not jets and especially not nukes. Yes, we need them because evolution produces conflict between groups, but they are not art, they are weapons designed to end life.

Exhausting diplomacy may in many cases be the clear locally optimal solution, but globally sub-optimal.

If our species always found solution in diplomacy we would likely not have ever progressed very far into the Bronze Age.    The need to be able to deal violent dispossession or death in order to not be killed or dispossessed violently was the strongest underlying motivation for so much of our race's social, scientific and technological progress. Even much of proudest peaceful accomplishement still had at their very core the motivation to stay ahead so as not to be seen as being behind, which may lead to eventually being dispossessed or killed violently.
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Messages In This Thread
Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 27, 2017 at 9:10 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Court Jester - August 27, 2017 at 9:29 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 27, 2017 at 9:42 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 27, 2017 at 10:13 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 27, 2017 at 10:32 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by brewer - August 28, 2017 at 4:52 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 28, 2017 at 5:28 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by drfuzzy - August 30, 2017 at 12:35 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by The Grand Nudger - August 27, 2017 at 10:45 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Astonished - August 28, 2017 at 12:03 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 28, 2017 at 12:11 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Pat Mustard - August 28, 2017 at 1:53 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Brian37 - August 28, 2017 at 4:59 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Edwardo Piet - August 28, 2017 at 5:21 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - August 28, 2017 at 5:34 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 28, 2017 at 5:35 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 28, 2017 at 7:07 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Crossless2.0 - August 28, 2017 at 5:37 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Wyrd of Gawd - September 1, 2017 at 7:00 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 29, 2017 at 12:02 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 29, 2017 at 12:55 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Fake Messiah - August 29, 2017 at 1:37 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 29, 2017 at 10:15 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Pat Mustard - August 29, 2017 at 6:14 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - August 29, 2017 at 10:19 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 29, 2017 at 10:30 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - August 29, 2017 at 10:35 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Little lunch - August 29, 2017 at 11:30 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 29, 2017 at 2:01 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 29, 2017 at 2:12 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - August 29, 2017 at 4:15 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 29, 2017 at 6:34 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 29, 2017 at 2:34 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - August 29, 2017 at 2:52 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 29, 2017 at 3:40 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 29, 2017 at 4:03 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 30, 2017 at 1:41 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - August 30, 2017 at 8:15 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 30, 2017 at 10:37 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Edwardo Piet - September 2, 2017 at 12:29 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 2, 2017 at 5:34 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by LastPoet - September 2, 2017 at 9:23 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Pat Mustard - September 2, 2017 at 1:29 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 29, 2017 at 9:49 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 29, 2017 at 10:03 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - August 29, 2017 at 10:37 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Fake Messiah - August 30, 2017 at 3:18 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Gawdzilla Sama - August 30, 2017 at 10:01 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 30, 2017 at 12:19 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - August 31, 2017 at 7:13 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2017 at 12:31 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 30, 2017 at 12:39 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 30, 2017 at 1:51 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by downbeatplumb - August 30, 2017 at 1:58 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 30, 2017 at 2:05 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by LastPoet - August 30, 2017 at 2:18 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2017 at 2:30 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 30, 2017 at 8:33 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Crossless2.0 - August 30, 2017 at 9:22 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 30, 2017 at 9:43 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Crossless2.0 - August 30, 2017 at 10:02 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 30, 2017 at 10:29 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 30, 2017 at 10:41 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 30, 2017 at 10:54 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 30, 2017 at 10:58 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by dyresand - August 31, 2017 at 12:59 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2017 at 2:44 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 31, 2017 at 5:29 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - August 31, 2017 at 5:51 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - August 31, 2017 at 6:40 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - August 31, 2017 at 7:29 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - August 31, 2017 at 7:43 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Brian37 - September 1, 2017 at 7:59 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - August 31, 2017 at 8:30 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Amarok - August 31, 2017 at 10:13 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 1, 2017 at 11:35 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - September 1, 2017 at 7:57 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 1, 2017 at 10:15 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Crossless2.0 - September 1, 2017 at 11:42 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - September 2, 2017 at 1:12 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by chimp3 - September 2, 2017 at 4:55 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by downbeatplumb - September 2, 2017 at 5:30 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - September 2, 2017 at 9:48 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 2, 2017 at 10:19 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - September 2, 2017 at 11:13 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 2, 2017 at 1:12 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 2, 2017 at 3:07 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Amarok - September 2, 2017 at 3:47 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Brian37 - September 2, 2017 at 4:34 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Edwardo Piet - September 3, 2017 at 10:31 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - September 2, 2017 at 4:11 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 2, 2017 at 4:13 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 2, 2017 at 6:17 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Brian37 - September 2, 2017 at 8:44 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 2, 2017 at 6:55 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 2, 2017 at 6:59 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 2, 2017 at 8:18 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 2, 2017 at 9:21 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 2, 2017 at 9:53 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by downbeatplumb - September 3, 2017 at 5:32 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 3, 2017 at 10:12 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 3, 2017 at 10:23 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 3, 2017 at 10:27 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Rev. Rye - September 4, 2017 at 12:42 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 3, 2017 at 8:26 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 4, 2017 at 12:02 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - September 4, 2017 at 7:41 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 4, 2017 at 8:55 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 4, 2017 at 9:30 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 4, 2017 at 10:24 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Thumpalumpacus - September 5, 2017 at 9:39 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Fake Messiah - September 5, 2017 at 12:21 am
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 5, 2017 at 12:58 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 5, 2017 at 3:00 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Anomalocaris - September 5, 2017 at 3:06 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - September 5, 2017 at 2:23 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Amarok - September 5, 2017 at 2:57 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - September 5, 2017 at 3:10 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by CatholicDefender - September 5, 2017 at 3:55 pm
RE: Holocaust Denial - by Cyberman - September 5, 2017 at 4:02 pm

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