(November 20, 2017 at 5:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:(November 20, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Grandizer Wrote: And 0 proof of God.
Yes, I mentioned there is no proof of God. There is no proof of either route you take, that was my point.
Kudos for claiming at least this much epistemic modesty.
(November 20, 2017 at 5:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:(November 20, 2017 at 5:34 pm)Grandizer Wrote: But we know the cosmos exists, so for now, it's more reasonable to believe the cosmos has always been. No need for God.
By "cosmos", you mean the universe, right?
I can see why you ask given the way Grandizer put it. I think cosmos and universe are often conflated. I think of it this way:
The universe is all the galaxies and everything else associated with the big bang. It is generally agreed we lack the means to look beyond this event of which we are part.
The cosmos refers to everything that exists, both as part of our universe and anything there might be beyond it. Whether or not there is anything beyond the universe may not be knowable, but using "cosmos" allows for that possibility where "universe" does not.
(November 20, 2017 at 5:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If so, then I disagree completely and think it's actually quite the opposite of what you've bolded. Because as I said earlier, there's been 0 evidence that anything in this universe could always have existed. Only evidence to the contrary - that the physical laws of our universe calls for things to have an origin.
We already know the big bang caused the cosmos, so we know they haven't always been here.
As to my bolded, I'd say our experience shows that effects generally are the result of prior causes. I don't understand quantum mechanics and predictability well enough to say how cause and effect relate at that level even within our universe. Of course if the cosmos should actually be larger than our universe, then its prior causes may only make sense within that larger context. We may never be able to ever resolve whether the cause of the universe was divine or a larger natural context. In the meantime I do respect your right to your opinion, especially out here where so little is or can be known.