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What is ∞ + ∞ = ????
#64
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ????
3. Ordinal numbers.

Where cardinal numbers describe 'size' by setting up a pairing between sets, ordinal numbers are concerned with order (first, second, third, etc).

So, the smallest ordinal number just has one thing (technically,, we could start with 0 things, but this is to make the whole ideas easier).

The second ordinal number has two things, with one smaller than the other. And example 1<2, so the set {1,2} with this ordering represents the second ordinal.

Now, when pairing sets for ordinals, we have to make sure the pairing preserves the ordering. So, an *order* pairing of {1,2,3} and {1,3,5}
would have to send 1<->1, 2<->3, 3<->5.

The difference is that for cardinals, we could have the pairing 1<->3, 2<->5, 3<->1. This is not allowed for ordinal comparisons.

Now, to add two ordinals, we put the first one in front of the second one. So, with {1<2<3} and {4<5<6}, to add them we have {1<2<3<4<5<6}, which is the sixth ordinal number
(so we write 3+3=6). The other way around would have {4<5<6<1<2<3} which has the same *order* structure as the previous e ordering is screwed up from the 'normal' one.

So, now, let's look at an infinite ordinal. The one we choose is the set of natural numbers again, {1<2<3<4<5<...}. This is usually denoted by the Greek letter ⍵. To add it to an ordinal representing 1, we use a symbol not in the naturals, say 1~{x}.

So, now, 1+⍵ is the set {x<1<2<3<4<..}. With a bit of thought, we can see that a pairing with x<->1, 1<->2, 2<->3, etc, will pair off 1+⍵ with ⍵, so we get

1+⍵=⍵.

Good enough.

But what if we do it the other way around? Now, ⍵+1 corresponds to a set like {1<2<3<.....<x}. Here, all the natural numbers are smaller than the x! Since x is now a largest member of this set, and since ⍵ does NOT have a largest member, the two are different!

So, for ordinal numbers, 1+⍵ is not the same as ⍵+1. When looking at order properties, order matters.

Now, to add ⍵+⍵, we have to put one copy of ⍵ after another copy! To distinguish them, I will use {1'<2"<3"<..}
for the second. Then we see that ⍵+⍵ corresponds to the set
{1<2<3<....<1'<2'<3'<....}.

This is different in order structure than ⍵.

Hence, for ordinal numbers, when we add two infinite ordinals we do NOT get the same ordinal back.

Multiplication is a much trickier thing. But again, the order matters and 2*⍵=⍵ is different than ⍵*2, which is the same as ⍵+⍵.

I hope this helped!
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Messages In This Thread
What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by ƵenKlassen - December 2, 2017 at 12:10 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by vorlon13 - December 2, 2017 at 12:11 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Joods - December 2, 2017 at 12:16 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Ravenshire - December 2, 2017 at 12:17 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Minimalist - December 2, 2017 at 1:30 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Ravenshire - December 2, 2017 at 2:08 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Joods - December 2, 2017 at 12:18 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by J a c k - December 2, 2017 at 12:20 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by ƵenKlassen - December 2, 2017 at 12:28 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Joods - December 2, 2017 at 12:28 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by bennyboy - December 2, 2017 at 1:14 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by henryp - December 2, 2017 at 12:22 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by chimp3 - December 2, 2017 at 12:34 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Joods - December 2, 2017 at 12:45 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by chimp3 - December 2, 2017 at 12:59 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Fireball - December 2, 2017 at 9:52 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Fireball - December 2, 2017 at 12:35 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by ƵenKlassen - December 2, 2017 at 12:38 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by c172 - December 2, 2017 at 12:47 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Rev. Rye - December 2, 2017 at 1:10 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Minimalist - December 2, 2017 at 2:15 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by pocaracas - December 2, 2017 at 5:31 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by LastPoet - December 2, 2017 at 6:49 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by pocaracas - December 2, 2017 at 10:48 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by henryp - December 2, 2017 at 11:15 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Fireball - December 2, 2017 at 6:39 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by downbeatplumb - December 2, 2017 at 7:55 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Whateverist - December 2, 2017 at 11:09 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Alex K - December 2, 2017 at 11:32 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Alex K - December 2, 2017 at 11:34 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Anomalocaris - December 2, 2017 at 12:30 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Alex K - December 2, 2017 at 4:49 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Angrboda - December 2, 2017 at 12:34 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Joods - December 2, 2017 at 3:38 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Edwardo Piet - December 2, 2017 at 5:40 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by ƵenKlassen - December 2, 2017 at 6:05 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Alex K - December 2, 2017 at 6:50 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Edwardo Piet - December 3, 2017 at 8:36 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Kernel Sohcahtoa - December 3, 2017 at 9:11 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Edwardo Piet - December 3, 2017 at 10:10 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Kernel Sohcahtoa - December 3, 2017 at 10:36 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Edwardo Piet - December 3, 2017 at 10:39 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Alex K - December 3, 2017 at 11:02 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Edwardo Piet - December 3, 2017 at 7:08 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Grandizer - December 3, 2017 at 7:18 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by pocaracas - December 3, 2017 at 7:35 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Alex K - December 4, 2017 at 1:17 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Kernel Sohcahtoa - December 6, 2017 at 4:23 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Kernel Sohcahtoa - December 3, 2017 at 10:20 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Grandizer - December 3, 2017 at 5:21 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by KittyAnn - December 3, 2017 at 11:53 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Shell B - December 3, 2017 at 12:19 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by ƵenKlassen - December 3, 2017 at 2:51 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Shell B - December 3, 2017 at 4:04 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by LastPoet - December 3, 2017 at 7:39 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Sal - December 4, 2017 at 8:02 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Jarrey - December 5, 2017 at 2:42 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Cod - December 4, 2017 at 9:19 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by WinterHold - December 5, 2017 at 12:24 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by ErGingerbreadMandude - December 5, 2017 at 12:46 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Succubus - December 9, 2017 at 1:04 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Haipule - December 9, 2017 at 1:53 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by polymath257 - January 3, 2018 at 6:45 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by polymath257 - January 3, 2018 at 8:31 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Fireball - January 3, 2018 at 10:00 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by polymath257 - January 3, 2018 at 10:48 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Whateverist - January 3, 2018 at 10:54 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Whateverist - January 3, 2018 at 10:42 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by vulcanlogician - January 3, 2018 at 10:57 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Jackalope - January 3, 2018 at 11:07 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Fireball - January 3, 2018 at 11:33 pm
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by Whateverist - January 4, 2018 at 6:22 am
RE: What is ∞ + ∞ = ???? - by vulcanlogician - January 4, 2018 at 12:35 am



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